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Roland spot colors and how they work

Gene@mpls

New Member
I use Vworks and I am pretty much happy with it. I have a RF and profiles are pretty scanty and very slow for this machine. We print almost
exclusively Roland Spot colors and print only what we design. My spot colors are over saturated and dry slowly... my understanding is they
are not affected by the profile (altho the quality and speed are, I think?) - what I would like to do I think is limit the total ink for the spots.
Anyone have any thoughts or ideas? Thanks Gene
 

GVP

New Member
All the Versaworks spot color system does is maintain consistent color across different profiles - I would suspect your profiles are still what are causing your problem.
 

DesireeM

New Member
I'm not sure if that is even an option but here's why it wouldn't make sense to do that...

The whole reason that the spot colors exist is to produce more saturated and vibrant colors than what CMYK can typically yield. Also for color matching more easily to Pantone Swatches.
The only way to achieve that is to drop more ink down.

If you reduce the amount of ink going down for the spot colors then they will be more dull...like regular CMYK mixes so you'd be defeating the purpose.
Why not just print out CMYK color charts and use those to choose your colors when designing? It will be the same result if you reduce ink in the Roland Spot colors.
 

Gene@mpls

New Member
Good thoughts- I did more google work and found this:

Although media profiles are ignored, VersaWorks uses calibration and ink limit information from the media profile, so it’s still important to select the correct profile. Choosing an incorrect media profile in VersaWorks may result in the printer laying down either too much or not enough ink, which can negatively affect print quality.

I will check this out but have cut my max ink output down to 100% (from 220) and cannot notice the difference. I would like to know a LOT
more about this.
I love the spot colors but would like to limit the total ink to enhance drying. Thanks Gene
 

Asuma01

New Member
Your media profiles make a huge difference. And there really isn't a good source online to learn how to profile media effectively. We ended up having our machines and all our media professionally profiled after struggling with it for years. If I knew then what I know now... We would have just paid the money up front to have it done. It costs quite a bit but it was worth it for us.
 

Signed Out

New Member
Your media profiles make a huge difference. And there really isn't a good source online to learn how to profile media effectively. We ended up having our machines and all our media professionally profiled after struggling with it for years. If I knew then what I know now... We would have just paid the money up front to have it done. It costs quite a bit but it was worth it for us.

Would you be able to elaborate more about what was improved over using "canned" profiles? We print mainly on oracal and use oracal's profiles that they offer. We used to use the versaworks profiles, but have found that we have more consistency and better colors with the oracal profiles, especially when printing raster images. But we still struggle with the occasional banding, and overly grainy looking colors.

We have been considering buying profiling equipment and trying to figure out how to make our own profiles. But we've struggled to find a good source on how to profile and don't want to spend a bunch of money on equipment just to spin around in circles and waste a lot of time.

I know that there are a lot of claims of less ink usage with custom profiles, but how much better do they print? Compared to versaworks profiles and manufactures profiles? How much does it cost to have a professional come and make profiles at your shop?
 

Asuma01

New Member
Off the top of my head some of the problems we were having.
Color shifting when under different light sources. This happens with all inks but the amount of color shift we were having was pretty huge. After the profiling the color shifting is much much less noticeable or doesn't happen at all.

Before when we printed grey it could shift really green or magenta.

Not being able to hit a spot color no matter how many samples we printed and tweaked. Even using an i1 we couldn't get close in a lot of cases. After the profiling we nail the colors almost every time. And now we know that if we cant hit a color its probably just out of our printers color gamut.
We had some issues with grainy prints. But to be honest most of the things we print isn't under such close scrutiny. That said, the profiling revealed that we weren't using our light inks to be fully effective. Now we have much smoother looking mid tones.

In comparison our new profiles are a night and day difference from the default profiles we had been using. Granted it depends a lot on what is being printed. Some times its a huge difference other times it isn't.


Cost depends on how many printers and how many media profiles you want. It will cost you a few thousand minimum I think.
We used Mike from Correct Color. He is a mad scientist and knows his stuff.
 

phototec

New Member
I found the best plan is to pick a media profile you like that has WHATEVER ink saturation you want for your media.

Then print the Roland Color Charts on your media of choice using the media profile from above.

Then after the color charts dry, you can select the color you want to match, I use a PMS color swatch as reference and BINGO, when the job prints I have a perfect color match using VW.

The latest wrap job required I match the vehicle color, I placed the Roland Color Chart on the vehicle hood and selected the BEST match, then printed the job using the Roland Color Chart code and the result was very, very close to the vehicle paint (for a CMYK printer).

Works for me...
 

splizaat

New Member
Someone correct me if i'm wrong but i think the profile DOES change the spot color library which is why you need to print the spot color chart off using every profile on the media it was made for. "COLOR MANAGEMENT" settings won't affect the spot colors however.
 

splizaat

New Member
The whole reason that the spot colors exist is to produce more saturated and vibrant colors than what CMYK can typically yield. Also for color matching more easily to Pantone Swatches.
The only way to achieve that is to drop more ink down.

If you reduce the amount of ink going down for the spot colors then they will be more dull...like regular CMYK mixes so you'd be defeating the purpose.
Why not just print out CMYK color charts and use those to choose your colors when designing? It will be the same result if you reduce ink in the Roland Spot colors.

The only thing you said here that was actually true was that the spot colors allow easier color matching. They have nothing to do with pantone or getting more vibrant colors. My goodness....
 

DesireeM

New Member
The only thing you said here that was actually true was that the spot colors allow easier color matching. They have nothing to do with pantone or getting more vibrant colors. My goodness....

So the Roland spot colors don't yield brighter colors than straight CMYK? The spot color do in fact use more ink in order to create more vibrant colors.

And you're telling me you've never used a Roland spot color in order to match to a Pantone color a customer requested? Because that happens to me all the time and it works for me.


All of these things were actually part of the sales pitch from our Roland rep so what part of what I said wasn't true?
 

splizaat

New Member
So the Roland spot colors don't yield brighter colors than straight CMYK? The spot color do in fact use more ink in order to create more vibrant colors.

And you're telling me you've never used a Roland spot color in order to match to a Pantone color a customer requested? Because that happens to me all the time and it works for me.


All of these things were actually part of the sales pitch from our Roland rep so what part of what I said wasn't true?

First off...don't believe everything your sales rep tells you. We were told that Roland NEVER takes a machine back once it's been delivered to a customer, and that Refurbished units only come from trade show demos and vinyl manufacturers after borrowing it for profiling. Turns out, our machine was sitting in another print shop and got returned and ended up at Roland's refurb department where they swapped out the mainboard and put it back for sale as a refurb. So don't believe everything your sales rep tells you...

Do you realize that if you print 100% cyan, and go put it against the chart it'll match the 100% cyan swatch? You can't just "throw more ink" on vinyl to get brighter colors. 100% cyan is 100% cyan. How could you possibly get 120% cyan?

Sure you can take a pantone swatch over to the spot color library and find one that matches and run that spot color instead, but the spot color library has been around forever - so I highly doubt "that's why it exists."

It exists so that you can run a spot color and know it's going to print the same every single time. It also exists, so that you can print spot color library and send it to your customers or designers and they can use spot color chart without having to be in your office at the time you're printing to verify colors. If they call out the spot color, they know it'll look just like it does on that handy chart.

Or picture this...customer brings you a printed piece of business card or their company van that was printed by shop XYZ and they can't get the files from them. So you pull out your spot color chart, and voila, a color on the chart matches the color already printed -- now you can run the spot color and you know it'll match without guessing.
 

DesireeM

New Member
First off...don't believe everything your sales rep tells you. We were told that Roland NEVER takes a machine back once it's been delivered to a customer, and that Refurbished units only come from trade show demos and vinyl manufacturers after borrowing it for profiling. Turns out, our machine was sitting in another print shop and got returned and ended up at Roland's refurb department where they swapped out the mainboard and put it back for sale as a refurb. So don't believe everything your sales rep tells you...

Do you realize that if you print 100% cyan, and go put it against the chart it'll match the 100% cyan swatch? You can't just "throw more ink" on vinyl to get brighter colors. 100% cyan is 100% cyan. How could you possibly get 120% cyan?

Sure you can take a pantone swatch over to the spot color library and find one that matches and run that spot color instead, but the spot color library has been around forever - so I highly doubt "that's why it exists."

It exists so that you can run a spot color and know it's going to print the same every single time. It also exists, so that you can print spot color library and send it to your customers or designers and they can use spot color chart without having to be in your office at the time you're printing to verify colors. If they call out the spot color, they know it'll look just like it does on that handy chart.

Or picture this...customer brings you a printed piece of business card or their company van that was printed by shop XYZ and they can't get the files from them. So you pull out your spot color chart, and voila, a color on the chart matches the color already printed -- now you can run the spot color and you know it'll match without guessing.

I am fully aware of why standardized color swatches exist in general. I didn't see that as necessary to explain. As for sending customers swatches so they can visually choose a color and you can maintain that color throughout all their jobs - you could do that with a simple CMYK printed swatch chart so it's not really worth mentioning in this context. The Roland spots exist so they can do that and more. I used "matching to a Pantone" as an example of how they are used to match to existing chosen colors and brighter spots. Referencing Pantone seemed like the most obvious and common connection to make. I'm sorry I did not elaborate that it could also apply to paint swatches, previously printed materials etc... I figured that could be extrapolated.

The fact that when I print using the Roland spots the colors are brighter, my media is wet and takes a lot longer to dry, and I can visibly see that there is more ink on the media leads me to believe that there is more ink being put down in order to achieve the vibrant colors....similar to how the "Max Impact" setting achieves the same thing.

Versaworks has a setting you can check off called "Convert Special Colors" under File Management. Let's say you have a 100%C file- If it's not checked you get 100%C..if it is checked you get the Versaworks converted, brighter, deeper version of 100%C. So how do they achieve that? Are they only putting down 80%C when the box is unchecked?
That setting converts a lot of regular cmyk mixes to the more saturated spot color versions. For instance, if checked, it will convert C:100 M:100 to the equivalent saturated PR26K even if you haven't used the spot color in your file. If unchecked the color comes out dull like regular cmyk.
Now, if you print C:100 M:15 (box checked) it doesn't recognize the "special color" and therefore doesn't automatically convert it to it's equivalent PR20K. You have to actually use the spot in the file in order for it to print saturated and bright.

All this to say that the majority of CMYK values aren't recognized by Versaworks as "special colors" and print within the regular percentage ink spectrum. The spot colors eliminate that inconsistency and create more saturated colors...logically I assumed this was achieved by putting down more ink but I'm looking into it.

I get what you're saying about 105% Cyan but you're comparing theoretical percentages to additive percentages(not sure if I used the right words). If you put down 100%C and 100%M is it now 100%Purple or is it 200%ink? If you set the printer to 2-pass print a block of 100% cyan will it not be a different color than if you printed it single pass? And will it not be 200% Cyan? Or is it still 100%Cyan but now darker....? My printer model has Light-Cyan and Light-Magenta ink as well. If 100%C is 100%C then what is the point of having the Light-Cyan?


If you could hit the spot colors with simple CMYK blends then there would be nothing special about Roland's spot library.
So if we're talking about what makes the Roland Spots unique or better than just using a plain cmyk swatch library the reason is because it can hit colors that regular cmyk cannot.
 
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