SAi license scam

[Alpha Star]

So I've been moving my license back and forth to do some work at home, and SAi has allowed this for months. Today, my copy woudn't work on any computer, and they said I have to pay $199 to unlock it. I think the honest thing to do is simply not allow me to detach the license after my limit is reached, but no... they just allow it and then lock it. I cancelled my subscription because I refuse to be muscled around like this.

 

[chrisphilipps]

I agree their system should have probably warned you before de-activating it from the last computer, but it does specify a limit in their terms of service.

"There is a limit of six times per year for SAi Support to remove from or add to another computer without an additional cost."

https://saisubscriptions.com/content/subscription-terms

 

[SightLine]

Can you not just leave the license attached to multiple computers at the same time? That is how the perpetual dongle licenses work and how we use it. The dongle is found over the network but only one computer can have Flexi open. If its open on one computer and another with the same license tries to start Flexi they just get an error that no license is available. Once the other computer that has it open closes Flexi then the other computer can run it.

 

[chrisphilipps]

an you not just leave the license attached to multiple computers at the same time? That is how the perpetual dongle licenses work and how we use it. The dongle is found over the network but only one computer can have Flexi open. If its open on one computer and another with the same license tries to start Flexi they just get an error that no license is available. Once the other computer that has it open closes Flexi then the other computer can run it.

No, that doesn't work with the "cloud" subscription license. It creates a digital finger print of the computer that it was activated on and doesn't allow you to install it on any other computer unless the digital finger print matches or you remove the license from the first computer.

 

[Alpha Star]

I agree their system should have probably warned you before de-activating it from the last computer, but it does specify a limit in their terms of service.

"There is a limit of six times per year for SAi Support to remove from or add to another computer without an additional cost."

https://saisubscriptions.com/content/subscription-terms

I doubt anyone would agree that you should be charged for everything you don’t know in terms of service. I also don’t see the $199 charge in there.

 

[balstestrat]

TOS is not a price list so that makes sense.

 

[SightLine]

No, that doesn't work with the "cloud" subscription license. It creates a digital finger print of the computer that it was activated on and doesn't allow you to install it on any other computer unless the digital finger print matches or you remove the license from the first computer.

All the more reason for us to then stay forever on the perpetual license and not upgrade anymore. Heck we upgraded to 21, everything became grainy because they changed the RIP engine and the new one does not support SO Diffusion. So we went back to V12 which was working better for us. It offers to convert your profiles to Enhanced Stochastic which while decent is not as good as SO Diffusion. We use our own custom profiles. Tried creating new ones from scratch in V21 and none were as good as what we had in V12 and earlier versions.

Not sure why they cannot stick with a RIP engine but my guess is licensing costs more than what is best for the customers. For years they used APPE (Adobe PDF Print Engine) which was great and provided excellent compatibility and color (not surprisingly) with Adobe files back with V10. Then V12 some other rip engine, then as of 19 yet another RIP engine.

 

[chrisphilipps]

I doubt anyone would agree that you should be charged for everything you don’t know in terms of service. I also don’t see the $199 charge in there.

I don't think most lawyers or courts would agree with you there. That is the purpose of the Terms of Service and you need to accept them to even purchase the subscription license, so technically you agreed to it. As balstestrat said Terms of Service don't normally spell out what the cost is as the cost can change over time.

 

[greysquirrel]

The last time I looked, the people creating the software where in business to sell software. If you are working at home, you can Remote Desktop in to use the software or if you really need to commute and have it with you, load it on a laptop. I don't have any issues with them charging because their terms were violated. It sucks. But so does having your software shared and not being reimbursed... No different then giving your art files away for free to have your customer use another printer, no?

 

[Alpha Star]

The last time I looked, the people creating the software where in business to sell software. If you are working at home, you can Remote Desktop in to use the software or if you really need to commute and have it with you, load it on a laptop. I don't have any issues with them charging because their terms were violated. It sucks. But so does having your software shared and not being reimbursed... No different then giving your art files away for free to have your customer use another printer, no?

None of that is in question. They have a working feature in their software that allows you to do it, and it violates their own terms. It doesn’t stop you after six tries. It’s not how any other software works. How would you like it if you installed a package that allows you to copy and paste, and then found out later that pasting costs $200? Would you be fine with being told that the TOS told you not to paste?

 

[Alpha Star]

I don't think most lawyers or courts would agree with you there. That is the purpose of the Terms of Service and you need to accept them to even purchase the subscription license, so technically you agreed to it. As balstestrat said Terms of Service don't normally spell out what the cost is as the cost can change over time.

I don’t know why it matters what you think a lawyer would agree with. The $199 charge is arbitrary. Their own website describes the product as having “no hidden fees”. This is a lie. Allowing the license transfer beyond the number of allowed uses is deliberate trickery. It was never laid out that I agreed to have my software locked, and they agreed to let me use the software for duration of the term and got paid for it. A simple phone call asking me to stop would have been nice, but they just locked it up. I would never treat a customer like this, so I can’t support them anymore.

 

[JBurton]

No, that doesn't work with the "cloud" subscription license. It creates a digital finger print of the computer that it was activated on and doesn't allow you to install it on any other computer unless the digital finger print matches or you remove the license from the first computer.

But I thought the idea of a 'cloud' install was, you know, use it anywhere... What makes the 'cloud' version different?

 

[Alpha Star]

But I thought the idea of a 'cloud' install was, you know, use it anywhere... What makes the 'cloud' version different?

Oh, I can answer that. SAi says it’s not a cloud service. I said “but it’s in the name… your site is saicloud.com”, and I was told “no, that’s just the delivery method”. Huh?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I'm still on Flexi 10. I tried the latest one last week when setting up a new office and it doesn't do ANYTHING different.

 

[CanuckSigns]

I looked into switching our rip from onyx to Flexi and the thing that really annoyed me is that they advertise the product as a design and rip software in 1 package, however, I can only install the software on 1 PC. I don't design on my rip computer, I have a dedicated PC hooked up to my printer whose sole job is to rip and print, I design in the comfort of my office, but in order to do this I would need to purchase an additional "design" licence. Apparently there is no way for me to install the Flexi design software on my design PC and production manager on the rip computer, that sealed the deal for me and I decided to go with onyx.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

All the more reason for us to then stay forever on the perpetual license and not upgrade anymore.

This is nothing. If Unity is able to get away with what they are doing (and they have done a couple of things that are quite a no-no in my non legal mind that should be concerning), I'm willing to bet that other companies will try their own version of it in other fields as well. SaaS should have been fought against harder about 10-12 yrs ago, but here we are. Brave new world out there. With software of this type, even with a perpetual license, we were always renters of it, never owners, just had a lot more options with it.

This is more than likely only going to get worse (especially considering how most people are trying to just get by and a lot of tech companies are needing to push harder now compared to years prior).



Now, the following is easier said, but be able to migrate away from one package to another would be the best way to do it. Unfortunately, the more niche a tool is, the harder it is. May not get a 1:1 conversion either, so the metric becomes is it worth it to go without x features, but still not have y cost? That all depends.

Oh, I can answer that. SAi says it’s not a cloud service. I said “but it’s in the name… your site is saicloud.com”, and I was told “no, that’s just the delivery method”. Huh?

Typically at this point, cloud really just means SaaS bottom line. Sure, there may be some functionality that requires an always online component, but even that isn't always the case.

While web based programs are getting more and more common, especially with the improvements of WASM, that would truly be the only type of cloud based computing is going back to the ole dummy terminal days, but in this case, it will be with web apps (which more and more people are using and going to lead to more and more eventual problems, but can't compete with that "convenience").

 

[chrisphilipps]

But I thought the idea of a 'cloud' install was, you know, use it anywhere... What makes the 'cloud' version different?

SAi started calling it Flexi Cloud with the release of version 11. I never agreed with SAi calling it Cloud in the first place, it has caused a lot of confusion over the years. I am sure it was a purely marketing decision to make the new versions sound more modern than the older ones. Most customers assumed that the software was running in the cloud and not installed locally. The main difference between version 11/newer and the older version of Flexi have to do with software activation. All copies of Flexi since version 11 use the saicloud.com website for software licensing/activation. Prior to version 11 they used a password/hardware key combination to validate the license locally.

For the record, there is no Cloud vs Non-Cloud version of Flexi. All versions and licenses of Flexi are installed locally on your computer. Depending on the license you can get access to "cloud" features. Some of those features are the ability to save files into the included cloud storage and the job approval tool.

If you have a license link to a hardware key you can split Flexi and Production Manager onto two separate computers as long as they are connected to the same network. The remote computer needs to see the hardware key on the host computer for Flexi to run. Not being able to split them is a limitation of the softkey license used for all new copies purchased, regardless of it being a subscription based or perpetual based license. You can still get a hardware key with perpetual licenses or upgrades to perpetual licenses but it is normally an addition fee to add or keep the hardware key.

The hardware key license versions can also be installed on multiple computers but can only be run on one computer at a time. The software checks the hardware key to see if it is in use before it will open, if it finds it in use it will fail to start.

 

[ikarasu]

Cant you just cancel your sub, and re-sub and not pay the $200?

I had a PC die and had to reinstall it on a new one - But I couldn't.... because it was already installed. Well... I had an audit that needed my Flexi to work... so I thought I was screwed. I called in, and luckly someone was able to reset my license and allow me to keep using the software... After I tried 5 different numbers.


But now I'm getting these E-mails -

So now if my PC Crashes for any reason and the license is locked to the old PC... I have to E-mail them and hope they reply in a week?

It's dumb. The software I use (Flexi Traffic edition) isnt even available as a monthly fee. We use it ONLY for traffic, then shut it down and use onyx for our normal workflow.... Onyx is leaps and bounds better than flexi in terms of both support, and using it.


Look into Onyx go - It's roughly the same price!

 

[Bobby H]

This crap is all the more reason to just not buy Flexi and go with some other alternatives. It doesn't take fancy software to run a vinyl cutter. Most routing tables need their own applications; Flexi isn't running them directly. The software is pretty limited as a design tool. I removed the Flexi license I had on my work computer 20 or so years ago because I didn't need it. The dongle got moved over to another PC hooked up to a routing table and vinyl cutter. I was doing all my design work in apps like CorelDRAW, Adobe Illustrator and Adobe Photoshop. I've spent a decent amount of money on Variable Fonts in the past few years and sync a good number of others via Adobe Fonts. Those kinds of fonts still don't work in Flexi. In terms of design functions, Flexi is really pretty limited. It's getting to the point where affordable apps like Affinity Designer and free apps like Inkscape are passing Flexi in terms of creative features. Whenever I have to pull up Flexi (on one of our other production computers) I feel like I'm taking a trip back to the 1990's.

We're still running 3 licenses of Flexi and 1 of VE LXI Expert at my workplace, but they're all older and not subscription-based. The RIP applications we're using are RIP-only (Onyx and RasterLink Pro); there's no design "front end" to them. Those apps don't need it. It's better for those apps to focus on their core purpose rather than bloating themselves trying to be Illustrator and Photoshop under the same umbrella. It's not going to hurt us too badly if we decide to ditch Flexi entirely. About the only thing I would stand to lose is being able to open some ancient CASmate SCV files from the 1990's. I usually had CorelDRAW CDR scale shop drawings to go with those files; so I could import those files if I couldn't use the SCV files. It's a pretty rare occasion when I have to open a work file over 20 years old.

More and more the old traditional "CAS" applications like Flexi are struggling to justify their existence and expense. On the design end of things there are far more capable choices as well as more affordable choices. Anyone buying a large format printer or routing table is likely to get specialty applications (such as Onyx or EnRoute) included with them. Like I said before, it doesn't take fancy software to run a vinyl cutter. Even plugins for CorelDRAW and Adobe Illustrator can do the job. Some vinyl cutters throw in some basic cutting software. This situation has apps like Flexi inching farther and farther into irrelevance.

With all that being said, it's really astonishing that SAi would strong-arm an existing, registered customer. Do these guys not even do any opposition research? You can install Adobe CC apps from one account on two computers (the two installs can't be running on the same network) and mobile devices like an iPad. It's pretty easy to manage activations. A CorelDRAW license can be installed on two computers in a similar manner. So the idea that SAi is doing all this restrictive stuff, confining installs and activations to one machine is pretty ridiculous. Some of us sign people don't have the best work-life balances and will take projects home with us? Does SAi want designers doing that work-from-home in Flexi or in one of the apps from the competition?

 

[Forty One]

I used one license on a couple of machines previously/
Trick is to set up a virtual machine, install the software, activate etc and then disconnect the computer from accessing the internet.
Then you can copy the virtual machine to multiple machines.