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Sandblast stencil material options and opinions?

appropriate1

New Member
I've blasted on redwood and urethane for many years and the past two+ years, have had constant issues with
stencil not sticking well to primed, painted and well dried sign enamels on both substrates. Shelf
life is touchy on Anchor 925 and I have watch that closely. We found 3M 1532 was perfect, but cost
more, and last year, they apparently stopped making it and it is no longer available.
Wondering what others recommend.

I have 15 sold blasted projects in line, mostly HDU. I can pre-paint or blast and then paint, but
prefer pre-painting if possible. Then we blast, prime and paint background and pull the stencil
and the sign is done with some touch ups.

Not enough tack has been the main problem.

Thanks,
Rob
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
We always used anchor 117. Sometimes the tack seemed a tad light, but always managed with a little extra glue schmutzed under it. HDU was always worse than the redwood.
 

appropriate1

New Member
Thanks, I had a similar post in Nov 2021 and got the same advice, but have not had good luck with it.
Out of options, so I guess I'll be trying it again. Smudging glue under it doesn't sound like a product
we should be paying so much to use. :-(
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Nothing today is worth what it costs anymore.

How small an area is lifting for you ?? We found if anything was 1/8" or greater, it all had enough tack, so we started years ago, making sure we didn't have any dainty or frilly areas.
 

appropriate1

New Member
Not sure what you mean is 1/8 inch or greater. We have 5 -8 inch letters curled up on all edges. Borders almost falling off.
Impossible to blast. The happened overnight after leaving flat in heated garage for 8 hours before blasting time.
 

citysignshop

New Member
Not sure what you mean is 1/8 inch or greater. We have 5 -8 inch letters curled up on all edges. Borders almost falling off.
Impossible to blast. The happened overnight after leaving flat in heated garage for 8 hours before blasting time.
sounds like adhesion AND a shrinkage issue. I'll bet the 'rubber' formulation has changed, waaaay less rubber, more plastic!...so it's not dimensionally stable. What worked before, will probably never work again!....I feel your pain!
Since it hasn't been mentioned, on occasion we've mounted something like a thick reflective ON another high-tack or removable vinyl, depending on the application....to help with a rough surface, or cold temps etc.
Perhaps this would improve your situation, as much as it would be costly and a pain in the butt! good luck!
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Oh, you have a problem. When we did pinstripes or fancy flourishes and they were flimsy and maybe barely 1/8" in thickness, they would sometimes lift while blasting, even though we stayed 90% perpendicular. What you're describing is a whole different problem.

We generally primed two coats of jay cooks primer and 2 to 3 coats of top coat, usually 1-shot bulletin or some good grade enamel paint. Never house paint. We'd put one coat of prime on a day. We'd wait a day between top coats, so a good 8 or 9 days of painting and then let it sit over a weekend for at least 3 days before putting the mask on. In the 80s and 90s we were doing lotsa sandblasted signs of redwood and some cedar. Very little HDU. If any substrate had a blow out, we would fill it in with auto body filler and it lasted as long as the foam or the wood.
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
I primarily use Anchor products for my monument work, but a sign-maker colleague prefers Hartco for his redwood and HDU signage (I sandblast them here at my shop).

To date, there's never been an issue like you're experiencing. The stencil (Hartco 900 series) holds hard and fast, blasts extremely well during deep cutting, and cleans up with no issues. Fine details stay put, and at the end of the day, I'm a happy camper...big time.

Again, for my monument work, I lean toward Anchor because we use a stone filler (adhesive) with it. But I am amazed by the results of the Hartco. I believe they will send you samples to try.

Here's a few projects where I used plotter-cut sign vinyl for stencil. I've posted these before in a couple of the other threads...just thought our big bunch of newbies might find them interesting.

JB

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Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
I primarily use Anchor products for my monument work, but a sign-maker colleague prefers Hartco for his redwood and HDU signage (I sandblast them here at my shop).

To date, there's never been an issue like you're experiencing. The stencil (Hartco 900 series) holds hard and fast, blasts extremely well during deep cutting, and cleans up with no issues. Fine details stay put, and at the end of the day, I'm a happy camper...big time.

Again, for my monument work, I lean toward Anchor because we use a stone filler (adhesive) with it. But I am amazed by the results of the Hartco. I believe they will send you samples to try.

Here's a few projects where I used plotter-cut sign vinyl for stencil. I've posted these before in a couple of the other threads...just thought our big bunch of newbies might find them interesting.

JB

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When you say regular vinyl as a stencil, do you mean like 651 or similar? Is the stone anymore forgiving to lift than wood? What are you blasting with too? I think our setup would be too big but have always wanted to do it. You don't see many blasted signs anymore and what is out there I would assume is cut on a CNC - boring. Looks like a deep cut on "Signs"
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
I've blasted on redwood and urethane for many years and the past two+ years, have had constant issues with
stencil not sticking well to primed, painted and well dried sign enamels on both substrates. Shelf
life is touchy on Anchor 925 and I have watch that closely. We found 3M 1532 was perfect, but cost
more, and last year, they apparently stopped making it and it is no longer available.
Wondering what others recommend.

I have 15 sold blasted projects in line, mostly HDU. I can pre-paint or blast and then paint, but
prefer pre-painting if possible. Then we blast, prime and paint background and pull the stencil
and the sign is done with some touch ups.

Not enough tack has been the main problem.

Thanks,
Rob
I never even thought about pre-painting. That might not be helping your cause. How does it turn out in the end? It would seem like there would be a bunch of touchups on the masked areas?
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
That's really the best approach. You only have minor touch up areas and on those big signs, it's never noticed.
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
When you say regular vinyl as a stencil, do you mean like 651 or similar? Is the stone anymore forgiving to lift than wood? What are you blasting with too? I think our setup would be too big but have always wanted to do it. You don't see many blasted signs anymore and what is out there I would assume is cut on a CNC - boring. Looks like a deep cut on "Signs"
Off the shelf calandered vinyl. I've noticed that as it ages the adhesive tends to get a bit more sticky...which is good. I use aluminum oxide abrasive...powder-fine, say 400-1200 grit combined. With abrasive that fine, it is much more forgiving if the stencil ever lifts.

Typically, for sign and monument work, I use 50 grit Starblast (staurolite...which is a notch down from AO in hardness).


JB
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Off the shelf calandered vinyl. I've noticed that as it ages the adhesive tends to get a bit more sticky...which is good. I use aluminum oxide abrasive...powder-fine, say 400-1200 grit combined. With abrasive that fine, it is much more forgiving if the stencil ever lifts.

Typically, for sign and monument work, I use 50 grit Starblast (staurolite...which is a notch down from AO in hardness).


JB
We use 30/65 silica sand, is that too aggressive?
We had a customer buy us a big soda blaster to do their blasting with, it was glass bead and want to say 300-400 grit for stainless. We had a real hard time getting it to flow right even with a pressure differential between pot/hose and a vibrator on the pot.
Tex, don't get excited and go buy a soda blasting pot over this.
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
We use 30/65 silica sand, is that too aggressive?
We had a customer buy us a big soda blaster to do their blasting with, it was glass bead and want to say 300-400 grit for stainless. We had a real hard time getting it to flow right even with a pressure differential between pot/hose and a vibrator on the pot.
Tex, don't get excited and go buy a soda blasting pot over this.
30/65 is way too aggressive for sign vinyl, but is just perfect for monument stencil that you'd use on redwood and HDU signage.

Soda blasters are usually set up with the ideal pressure differential system, so blasting with hard abrasive shouldn't be an issue. To reiterate: Yes, you can use hard abrasive in commercial soda blasters such as a Schmidt.

Abrasive flow is probably the number one issue everybody experiences, and making sure you have nearly 100 percent bone-dry compressed air is the first step. Aftercoolers, refrigerated dryers, coalescing filters and desiccant dryers each have their place, and there are reasons for using two or more at the same time.

Beyond that, the abrasive itself is largely responsible for its own flow through the pot. Sharp, angular (usually coarse) abrasive typically likes to "lock" together. Silica abrasive, however, is a winner in this category and usually flows very easily, since it isn't as sharp as aluminum oxide or some of the other exotic abrasives out there.

I've been at it nearly seventeen years, and I firmly believe the type of abrasive metering valve at the bottom of the pot is the key element to consistent flow. I know several manufacturers that place vibrators on their pots, and that's just downright sillyness....and it fatigues the metal as well. Of all the metering valve manufacturers, only two stand out: Empire (USA) and Saunders (England). They both utilize a pinch tube that provides a "straight shot" down and out through the bottom of the pot. All other configurations require the abrasive to go through some sort of zig zag path before making its way to the blast hose. Believe me, it really makes a difference.

I'm running a Clemco pot with an air-actuated (diaphragm) Empire Sure-Flow metering valve, shown below. It runs on a 3-way manual rotary air (valve) switch shown in the last photo. I start the blast air first, and then throw the abrasive switch once the blast air gets up to full speed. When I"m done blasting, I shut off the abrasive flow, then wait for the hose to clear and then shut off the blast air. This process eliminates the sputtering and surging associated with most blast pots starting up.

Again, the abrasive falls from the bottom of the pot in a perfectly straight line through the pinch tube valve and then into the jet stream of the blast hose. The cam-lock nipple is the "air inlet" side of the tee...it's also called the pusher hose. The blast hose connects on the opposite side of the nipple.

In the second photo, I was bench-testing the valve with an air hose to make sure it opened and closed correctly. When the valve is opened, the abrasive falls down through the large chamfered opening...which is another reason this type of valve is so crazy good. The hole leading into the pinch tube at the bottom of the large chamfer is approx. 7/8" diameter (outside diameter is a 2-inch pipe thread for reference).

Now the "bad" part...an OEM valve runs just north of $700. Mine paid for itself in just a day or two...seriously, it's that effective.

JB

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Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Were running all pressure release systems, that looks like a pressure hold mixing valve? They save media but we had tons of issues with the one we had. This year we got a new 375/425 compressor which has an after cooler and separator. Water has always been an issue in the past without one.
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
Were running all pressure release systems, that looks like a pressure hold mixing valve? They save media but we had tons of issues with the one we had. This year we got a new 375/425 compressor which has an after cooler and separator. Water has always been an issue in the past without one.
Yes, it is a pressure-hold mixing valve. It works incredibly well and saves both time and media.

The main issue I ran into with other pressure-hold metering valves is that they are not suited for recycled media, which is usually fine and dusty. The Schmidt valves would bind up, and the Clemco valves were not really suited for precision flow control.

People usually joke about sandblasting not being rocket science, but it really is. It is 100% reliant upon fluid dynamics: from the moment a single grain of abrasive falls through the bottom of the pot, until it finally strikes a surface. Nozzle technology is a science all unto itself, as there are thousands of variations for every application under the sun.


JB
 
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