Second surface digital graphics

[OADesign]

Hi All,

Happy holidays. One more day off before we get back to business.

So I was hoping to get some tips on improving this process.

We do a lot of this type of sign for our clients. Take 1/4" plex, cut to shape and apply digital graphics to the second surface (backside to be viewed from the front). Many times we outsource, having it printed on a flatbed (4 color and backed with white). Stunning results. But problem is, this process doesn't lend it self well to one offs and smaller size parts. Its just not cost effective and the turn around could be better. Not the vendors fault. Sometimes we just need a shorter lead time.

So what I do in this case is print mirrored on clear vinyl, then back the print with white vinyl, then apply wet to the clear plex. The results vary. Sometimes its great! Other times not so much. I have to print two copies "just in case". Sometimes I get a fish eye because there was a spec of dust on the print or under the white. Or sometimes the adhesive just doesn't lay down right and you can see the flaws on the front side. Even worse if you try to pull it back and lay it down again. And lets not get into guess how the color may or may not look when you can see the true result until the process is complete. I have some of these due at the end of the week where the image is not full bleed. Its actually 2" smaller than the clear plex. There will be a clear border all the way around. I'm more worried about this one now because the registration has to be spot on or its going to look really bad.

Any tips one improving this process? Or does anyone have a better approach?
Thanks in advance.

 

[SightLine]

We do them but printing on a display film like "Popup" from Fellers. Then we mount it to the acrylic with an optically clear mounting adhesive. For these we always dry apply them using our laminator to do the application. Preferably we will have some extra bleed, and using an additional scrap piece of acrylic starting it by hand on that making sure the actual production piece butted to the edge of the scrap lines up perfect with everything then push it all through the laminator. Almost always perfect results. When a clear border is needed I usually will wet apply the print being ultra generous with the app fluid and being ultra careful not to tough the adhesive side. There will always be the once on a while speck of crap ruining one though. Just have to avoid that as much as possible up front making sure the area is spotlessly clean.

 

[rubo]

here is my sandwich - PTG reverse print / mounting film / sintra. guess what - if you spray/brush the print with "metallic" paint (you'll have to have white on your image where you want metallic effect - no need to create spot channels etc...) - you'll have the best metallic effect possible without metallic inks. Have a picture somewhere - will look for it if anybody wants to see it.
Happy New Year!

 

[Biker Scout]

Any one of your favorite print materials + Optically Clear Mounting Film. Apply Dry.

 

[OADesign]

Any one of your favorite print materials + Optically Clear Mounting Film. Apply Dry.

So you don't worry about getting the "silvering" or air trapping behind the print?

 

[Biker Scout]

Optically Clear won't silver, and secondly apply dry meant running the prints with the optically clear on first like you are laminating the graphic. Through a mounter or laminator. Then apply the print to the acrylic like you are mounting the regular way. Again, through a mounter or laminator. It's still a 2 part process, but looks amazing when done. Also, if you can... sometimes having a leader of acrylic or extra that you can cut off after the print is mounted will help things start out smoothly on the mounter.

 

[SightLine]

We also dry apply but we use our laminator to apply the print. Never get any silvering and I guarantee your laminator can lay the print down better than you can by hand.

 

[Asuma01]

What is the advantage of printing on a display film then using optically clear adhesive to mount it? Why not just use a clear adhesive vinyl?

It seems like adding in an extra step for no benifit that I can think of.

Can you explain the reasoning?

 

[SightLine]

Not really an extra step if you are going to have to back the clear up with white..... Just a different way of going about it is all. I know some places just use a white vinyl backer. Nothing wrong with that method and it will work but it is really not the intended use of the material. Does not have to be a display film even, can really use any non-adhesive print material then use a mounting film. For me its just how I learned to do it.

 

[Biker Scout]

Ever see a Peter Lik or Rodney Lough print at one of those art galleries? Optically clear mounting adhesive with Durst Lambda fuji film. Printing on clear vinyl sucks by comparison. Yes, we do the clear vinyl as a shortcut a lot around here, but that particular client's visual needs are far less than, say a casino, or an art project. Plus, our client provides the material because he has super cheap clients that he build for. We've worked out a deal where we just told him what we wanted to make per sq. ft. and with him supplying the material he is able to accommodate us. But when he wants to present to a new client he always shows a film mounted print.

Here's an alternative solution if you actually like to print on clear then back mount with white vinyl. Use the optically clear lamination. The kind for doing vehicle window perf. Seriously... take an image printed on optically clear, and then on regular clear vinyl. Peel the backer liner off and hold up to the light and look through it. If color fidelity and image clarity is important to you, then optically clear is the correct way to do it. Light transmittance keeps reducing clarity and sharpness the more layers it has to go through before it bounces off the image and back to your eyes. Light already get's reduced by 8-10% on regular acrylic, and even more then thicker you go. Coupled with the fact that light will also defuse slightly through the haze of the clear vinyl's adhesive layer. Unless you step up and double the price you are willing to pay for the museum grade acrylic with it's higher light transmittance and non-glare face.

The kind of money that can be commanded from a second surface mounted print, the few extra bucks per sq. ft. to do it right with the best materials is really minimal. Those are things that shouldn't be sold on a sq. ft. basis. Seriously, if Peter Lik can get between $7500 - $15,000 and sometimes more for a mounted print, with a less than $200 - $300 worth of materials at most, it's more about presentation and wow factor. He's not necessarily the best photographer in the world, but it's really all about presentation.

Depending on where my second surface mounted prints are going, (I always ask) I sometimes would just use a photo printer on photo paper to get the best possible image. (Actually I now use a photo lab just down the street for those, they have a 30" wide Durst) Then I back the photo paper with .040" aluminum to make a sandwich. If I was trying to be fancy I could use Dibond.

 

[a77]

Is printing on clear (say 3651) really that amateurish?
If you make a custom profile of it after placing your backer vinyl... results should be good?

I'm asking because I have my first 2nd surface acrylic "showpiece" coming up and that was going to be my plan. But I could also print on something else and then use the clear double-sided mounting adhesive my supplier has been telling me about.

 

[Biker Scout]

Honestly, I'd ask your supplier if they would be willing to provide you with a sample. Make your "showpiece" out of that, and get used to the process. And if you like the sample you can order. Maybe even work out a deal with the supplier that you will make them a sample acrylic piece as well so they can show how people are using the double mount stuff.