Seiko heads in a 10'6" printer. Need tech.

[LenXIII]

I apologize if this is in the wrong forum, I didn't not see a Seiko forum or a tech related one for this.

We have a "china" printer that is 10'6" using seiko mainboards and heads. They are the newer Seiko heads like in the W54s. The printer is brand new and as we should have known, communicating and getting tech support is impossible. Does anyone know a technician that is experienced in larger printers that would be willing to take a job to come and get this thing up and running?

It powers up just fine, but there are minor things we can't figure out. The ink just runs through the print nozzles when we get everything turned on and open the ink lines. I think this is some kind of pressure (or lack of) issue but I'm just not savvy enough with this type of printer to trouble shoot it. There probably isn't a tech specifically trained on this printer, but any tech that is good at trouble shooting and has a good understanding of large/grand format digital printers will be able to figure this thing out I'm sure. At least on the hardware end of things.

Thanks in advance!

 

[artbot]

i'd first look for a negative pressure dial somewhere on the printer. printers with subtanks balance pressure to the heads by over weighting it to the heads, then drawing a mild suction at the lines to draw it
back into balance. if it is too low then the ink will just fall right out of the heads. think of it as putting your finger on the top of a straw submerged in fluid. now pull up the straw. the fluid stays in the straw. now let a little bit of air into the top, the pressure will drop and release a tiny bit of vacuum. then the fluid will flow out the bottom. this is how ink gets through your head.

 

[LenXIII]

Thanks for the reply. That's pretty much where we're at. We were able to talk to someone via skyp at one point and he was directing us to a pressure valve that didn't exist. He then said some of the printers didn't have it but was waiting on the tech again to explain which never happened. I have been all over the printer and cannot find a pressure valve. The printer is fairly simply laid out but appears to be complete. All of the electronics seem to be made by seiko themselves and the chassis is just some Chinese manufactured steel. Maybe I'll post pictures if anyone is interested. I don't mind trouble-shooting this myself, but I'm also willing to pay a tech to travel and mess with it himself

EDIT: I just talked to my partner and he reminded me that after cleaning the pressure valves behind the head it no longer leaked ink but when we used the purge ink buttons we couldn't get it the ink to spray (the opposite of free flowing.) The solvent purge works great and purges solvents through each of the four heads on command. All ink lines are clear etc. He also just informed me that the ink system and layout is almost exactly designed the same as an old graphtec JS310-25ES 102" printer.

 

[artbot]

without seeing this printer, you should have a set of smaller ink pumps that pull ink to the subtanks. then there will be a slightly larger but similar looking pump that doesn't seem to pump ink but air instead. this is the negative pressure pump. look for that and follow it to some small dial (our is a very very small dial about 1/4" in diameter). turning this dial will raise and lower the negative pressure.

 

[LenXIII]

Artbot I really appreciate your time. Here is a picture of the "micro diaphragm pumps" that I believe you are referring to. The one on the far left seems to be the one that pumps air. From what I can tell it has a filter attached to it. Where would you think that this adjustment dial would be located?

EDIT: I just found this picture on a CD that came with the printer. It shows another pump attached to that microdiaphram pump but I looked at original pictures that we took when we first got the printer and it isn't attached. I'm not sure if that second pump is required or not - what do you think?

 

[LenXIII]

Here are some extra pictures of the printer.

 

[gregwallace]

Im not sure about your "china" printer but our vutek printers have solenoids that fire for ink and solvent purges. One set for ink and one for solvents. When I press ink purge you can hear the solenoids click and ink begins flowing from the heads. If you're saying that your ink purge command isnt working but your solvent purge is I would check the solenoids (if it were a vutek). If this printer has solenoids it won't matter if your nanometer is set to high or not (assuming you were suggesting that your situation had shifted from not enough negative pressure to too much negative pressure). The solenoids would look like small black cylinders maybe 1 or 1.5 inches in diameter and they would be attached to the ink lines somewhere in the carraige.

 

[artbot]

to me that second pump like gadget attached right next to the air pump is some sort of electric/solenoid/regulator. if so, you have an incomplete set up on your machine. of course that part can be manual or attached to the main board. is the pump pulling (you can take off an end while it's on and put your finger on the end and feel the vacuum). it doesn't make sense that ink is falling out of the heads. instead without a regulator it should be pulling way to hard thus starving the heads. i'd immediately bring up the with the printer builder and have them get you this extra part along with instructions to what part of the main or carriage board that you are to plug it into.

what chinese brand is this printer?

 

[LenXIII]

We are not having the ink free flowing through the head problem any more. Now we have a problem with ink not purging through the head. We used to have vuteks so I am a little familiar with what you are referring to. We do have solenoids on all ink lines in the carriage and they all "click" when we use the purge button. Greg, look at the third picture in my previous post. That shows the back of the carriage with the ink subtanks and the solenoids above them. You can also hear the pumps trying to work but no ink comes from the head. I am leaning towards we have too much negative pressure now like you mentioned.

The printer we purchased is at this link below. We do have some extra parts including one of those pumps that was shown in the picture with the air pump that had 2 pumps on it instead of 1. I can try setting it up to look like that picture just to test it out, but before we put ink back through the lines I want to have multiple options to try.

http://www.wer-china.com/productview.asp?id=186&cid=25

 

[gregwallace]

ok so are you saying that the pumps are turning on but ink isnt making it to the secondary reservoir? The solenoid fires but without ink in the reservoir nothing will come out? It looks like the tanks are empty. Is this correct?

 

[LenXIII]

ok so are you saying that the pumps are turning on but ink isnt making it to the secondary reservoir? The solenoid fires but without ink in the reservoir nothing will come out? It looks like the tanks are empty. Is this correct?

That picture was taken after we started to shut it down and get ink out of the lines. When we power on the printer all four of the subtanks properly fill to the correct level then stop. So the inks make it from the bulk containers through the inline filter and in to the subtanks. Then we when pres the individual ink purge buttons you can hear it trying to do something but the ink doesn't make it from the subtanks through the head. As far as I can tell all solenoids and pumps appear to work properly, but I could be wrong. The solvent does however make it from the subtank through the head when we press the purge button for the solvent. The solution flows nicely through all four heads.

 

[gregwallace]

ok one time i took apart the solvent lines in front of the solvent solenoids to clean them. They had these small black plastic tube fittings that I had removed and put back on. I put them on backwards as I later found out they were one way flow fittings. This created a situation where I press solvent purge the solenoids click on but nothing comes out. Could something like this be a possibility in your case?

 

[National Sign Co. - Print]

It is the electronics in the Jet pack not telling it to fire correctly. This is an electrical issue not a mechanical one. Swap the head with one that is working correctly and if the problem moves you know it is in the Jet pack. 99% percent sure that is the problem.

 

[gregwallace]

ink purge bypasses the electronics. the jets dont fire for purging.

 

[artbot]

take a picture of your head carriage so we can see what kind of bulkhead/valve/cleaning system is on this thing. to me, if the negative pressure was an issue the solvent wouldn't drop from the heads either.

i'm not very experienced with these machines ink systems (only been using s subtank system for a few months). but is the ink "falling" down the lines into the head? in effect you aren't "purging" by pressure, rather "purging" is removing the negative pull on the ink allowing the ink to "fall" out of the head. so, do you first drawing ink with a syringe from the subtank to the head to start the siphon effect? after that wouldn't the system in a more balanced state? then attempt this alternating between solvent flush and ink. just guessing in that i'm still learning.

 

[gregwallace]

alright did some research. When the solenoid closes(usually open), the positive air pressure is applied to the subtank pushing ink through the system. Locate the air line going in to the subtank. disconnect it with the machine on. When you press ink purge the solenoid should close and you should feel air coming out of the line. You probably wont be able to feel the negative pressure before pressing ink purge. I tried it on our 3360 and the negative pressure drops almost completely when you disconnect the line. If air doesnt come out of the line when you ink purge then that is your problem. If the solenoid closes and no air then air supply is the problem.

 

[gregwallace]

here is some more info of our machine setup. I have 7 lines coming into the carriage. 4 ink, 1 solvent, and 2 air. The path of the air lines are as follows

#1 goes first to the venturi (where negative pressure is created)
then to the overflow subtank(where the ink goes if the negative pressure is to great)
Then dispersed to four solenoids which are open
Then to four subtanks= negative pressure

#2 goes to solenoids (same as #1)
solenoid closes air goes to subtanks= ink purge

To check #2 disconnect air line past the solenoid and press ink purge. Air should blow out of the line. This confirms good solenoid and good air supply. This line is also filtered on our 3360 as the air goes directly to the subtanks.

If any of the lines on the setup for #1 are broken or open there will be no negative pressure. It has to be a sealed system to work.

 

[LenXIII]

Thank you very much for the replies. I am going to test all of that in the next day or two and keep you updated. I appreciate the time from everyone assisting here, you atleast gave me a little better understanding of the mechanical operation which is what I'm good at from that point. If I understand "how" something works I am usually darn good at trouble-shooting what's not working as it should.

I am first going to test to make sure the air and solenoids operate using your method. I will post back ASAP. Don't forget about me If I don't make a post for a day it's just because I am juggling a lot.

To answer another previous question - there is no cleaning station on this printer. No wiper, no suction, nothing. This machine is setup more like a vutuk where cleaning means purging a little bit of ink and wiping it with an expensive head wipe (as far as I know.) I didn't make the purchase on the machine but I am tired of seeing it become a coffee table for 12 months and losing the benefit of a 10.5' printer.

 

[gregwallace]

So that pump creates all the air pressure? We have air compressors feeding around 95 psi to two of our vutek printers. In the 5th picture are those the solenoids floating directly above the subtanks? One connection is open. Also it appears that there is an open line attached to the subtanks. This doesn't seem correct. Does air rush out of the open connection on the solenoid when you hit purge? Do you have one or two air lines coming into the carraige? I need pictures of the entire air path in the carriage. Also what were you referring to when you said that so and so had cleaned the valves and you no longer had ink leaking from the heads? That is probably where the trouble shooting should begin. So and so changed something that is relevant to your problem. Has the machine ever worked? I went to your link. You're going to be making some pretty billboards at 1440 dpi. lol