Suggestions Shop Drawing Software Recomendations

[Kimberly Hiles]

No, did you watch that video? It does use the method I am talking about but he is only able to bring in one set of data at a time (like the 1-up sticker he is using) he then has to save that one up image as a PDF. This method creates a different file for each set of data. This does not work for what I am trying to achieve, which is a shop drawing package that has different spec notes for each sign type. Using this method I would need an individual PDF page for every sign type.

Once again, I am trying to find out what other companies use for their shop drawings OR recommendations on how to input Multiple variable sets into a software like Illustrator/Indesign

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Understood, at least for the actual hard data there doesn't seem a need to us AI so we're open to switching to a different program or pairing AI (for the sign layouts) with a different program (for the shops). Attached a few examples of what our complex shops and our simple proof shops look like now.

I'm only aware of the laborious way to do that in Ai. There is a user on here (Rick), he may be able to get give you better tips/tricks to do that within Ai or have other suggestions as that type of work I believe is his bread and butter.

I like Astute's Dynamic Tools a little better but we will probably be implementing one or the other across the board soon

I'm a huge fan of this plugin. I have their suite of plugins for CS6 that I'll still run in the VM (I'm more of a Linux user now).

Having said that, typically true fully fledge CAD/CAM programs tend to have better measuring tools then what you'll find with the likes of Ai and DRAW (I know some will say that DRAW's tools are better then Ai's out of the box). Where measurements really need to be accurate (machine shop accurate).

Some even have spreedsheets within the program. FreeCAD for instance (although that's beta software, still pretty good, not so much for production use now). I'm not suggesting FreeCAD for this problem, I'm only mentioning it as an example of a CAD program that has direct spreadsheet functionality in it that can be embedded within the main FCStd file.

 

[Bobby H]

My 2¢ on the topic: I tend to design most of my client sketches (which also double as shop drawings) in CorelDRAW. There are occasions where I'll use Illustrator to create the shop drawings instead if the artwork has an effect in it that is Illustrator-dependent. But I can usually complete technical drawings a lot faster in CorelDRAW with its stock tool set.

In my own work I use CorelDRAW, Illustrator and Photoshop heavily. I'll use InDesign occasionally. No one single program does it all. I lean more on these mainstream graphics programs rather than using a CAD program or "CAS" software like Flexi. We do have 3 licenses of Flexi though. Most CAD/CAS applications are primitive in their type handling compared to Illustrator and CorelDRAW. Incomplete support of OpenType is a deal breaker for me. There's all sorts of other unique creative features in CorelDRAW and Illustrator. Almost all of our large format print work is round-tripped through Illustrator or InDesign before going into the RIP.

When I use Flexi or other CAS software I feel like I've gone back in time to the 1990's. But we do use industry specific applications like Flexi and EnRoute for various phases of production. They're just not the tip of the design front end.

Regarding measuring, there's nothing "inaccurate" about the basic measurements CorelDRAW and Illustrator provide versus that of a CAD program. Illustrator can also provide very accurate path length values. I use a very handy Astute Graphics plug-in to figure path area and other kinds of values.

Both CorelDRAW and Illustrator have ways to automate certain tasks. But so much of the work in sign design requires a good bit of manual work, even on a big project like a hospital signs package. I have templates for all sorts of signs we make and make again repeatedly, such as name signs for houses on a US Army post. I can whip out one of those things (full scale drawing and scale client sketch with specs) in a couple or so minutes, but I at least have to check and adjust kerning of the lettering on the sign.

We use other software (including Excel) for a lot of our administrative work. But the only thing we add to our shop drawings is a spec sheet to include any details that won't fit on the scale drawing. Those details are finalized in a production meeting. CorelDRAW supports multiple pages, so it's easy to add one or more pages to a shop drawing to hold these spec sheet details.

 

[ColorCrest]

Some even have spreedsheets within the program. FreeCAD for instance (although that's beta software, still pretty good, not so much for production use now). I'm not suggesting FreeCAD for this problem, I'm only mentioning it as an example of a CAD program that has direct spreadsheet functionality in it that can be embedded within the main FCStd file.

The OP mentioned she is willing to delve into a CAD package. However, most (if not all) those options such as Revit, are actually linked to an external database anyway. Revit links via ODBC to MS Access, but should connect to almost any. Not cheap, not quick to get going, not without other challenges.

 

[ColorCrest]

I suspect the reason the OP is having such difficulty finding an obvious solution is because others generally don’t use, or have a need, for such a method using the particular procedure the OP envisions. Illustrator, InDesign, etc., can handle variable data, PDF pages can handle data, operating systems can link sources to one another, etc.

The lack of finding the answer via a quick Google search might be an indication to reassess.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

However, most (if not all) those options such as Revit, are actually linked to an external database anyway. Revit links via ODBC to MS Access, but should connect to almost any. Not cheap, not quick to get going, not without other challenges.

The ones that I use do not. Now, they are certainly not thought of as the "standard" either (especially considering my platform of choice). But, even if they did, I could always re-direct it elsewhere or strip it out and recompile and deploy if it was that big of a concern.


I would suspect that there is going to be some "teething pains" no matter what the procedure is when it's a very specific niche one.

General graphics programs (Ai, DRAW, Inkscape, Zara) aren't really trying to solve specific "nicheproblems", but be a general "problem solver". They may do well in one area versus another, but they are still general purpose. Plugins/macros/extensions are what is used for niche problem solving using a general purpose program.

Trying to make them work in some areas, it may get done, but not without some laborious effort. In Ai, may be able to automate some things via Actions/scripts, how much, depends on the specific workflow trying to accomplish.

 

[Kimberly Hiles]

I suspect the reason the OP is having such difficulty finding an obvious solution is because others generally don’t use, or have a need, for such a method using the particular procedure the OP envisions. Illustrator, InDesign, etc., can handle variable data, PDF pages can handle data, operating systems can link sources to one another, etc.

The lack of finding the answer via a quick Google search might be an indication to reassess.

I am asking what programs other signage companies use to make shop drawings. Not asking someone to figure out the issue of variable importing. I was providing that information simply as background for what I had tried before. You seem to actively trying to get other users to stop answering what to me seems like a harmless question to me.
Whatever I did to upset you so much, I apologize, but please stop trying to be actively unhelpful.

 

[ColorCrest]

I am asking what programs other signage companies use to make shop drawings. Not asking someone to figure out the issue of variable importing. I was providing that information simply as background for what I had tried before. You seem to actively trying to get other users to stop answering what to me seems like a harmless question to me.
Whatever I did to upset you so much, I apologize, but please stop trying to be actively unhelpful.

No hard feelings what so ever. I believe I've answered your OP a few times with some software names.

Here's another that you might look into; Adobe FrameMaker. It's always been strong with both data and graphics, long or short formed. You say ownership "haven’t been interested in paying for the full version of Sketchup" though. That's another hurdle.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

I use AI with CADtools for layout design. For variable messaging I include a message schedule. Everything is filed in a hierarchical directory (A –Z > Client > Project > individual files). No need for a relational database because each project is unique and not subject to query. Any "workflow" solution can contain links to the design data set.
I think you are trying to make things more complicated than they need to be.

 

[ColorCrest]

I use AI with CADtools for layout design. For variable messaging I include a message schedule. Everything is filed in a hierarchical directory (A –Z > Client > Project > individual files). No need for a relational database because each project is unique and not subject to query. Any "workflow" solution can contain links to the design data set.
I think you are trying to make things more complicated than they need to be.

I'd like to learn more about whatever this is, myself. Care to offer more?

 

[Kimberly Hiles]

I use AI with CADtools for layout design. For variable messaging I include a message schedule. Everything is filed in a hierarchical directory (A –Z > Client > Project > individual files). No need for a relational database because each project is unique and not subject to query. Any "workflow" solution can contain links to the design data set.
I think you are trying to make things more complicated than they need to be.

I'm not concerned with file organization right now really, we have that part pretty straightened out, though I may be misunderstanding you. It's more an issue when it comes to the actual shop drawings themselves. The goal is to be able to push more of the spec'ing workload onto project managers (or random other employees) so it is not tying up designer time. Part of the draw, I think, is that we would be able to hire on more untrained designers & PMs and wouldn't have to get them familiar with signage materials/fabrication before pushing them into action. < Please understand, I do not support this part of the concept.

 

[ColorCrest]

Part of the draw, I think, is that we would be able to hire on more untrained designers & PMs and wouldn't have to get them familiar with signage materials/fabrication before pushing them into action.

In my neck of the woods we have a position called "production artist." Typically they receive files from clients and designers and re-work the elements to create print-ready files and for any other use. Mostly technical for print, not much creative, and want-ads are rather clear about that fact. They usually work directly with CSRs and production managers.

 

[Kimberly Hiles]

In my neck of the woods we have a position called "production artist." Typically they receive files from clients and designers and re-work the elements to create print-ready files and for any other use. Mostly technical for print, not much creative, and want-ads are rather clear about that fact. They usually work directly with CSRs and production managers.

yeah... we typically have new hires to the design department do this job but eventually they get dragged into the more complex work.
We're an "everyone needs to wear many hats" kind of company so the same designers that do the plan reviews, design the signs, make the shop drawings, and setup production files, while occasionally doing field measures or client interaction.

 

[Bobby H]

The goal is to be able to push more of the spec'ing workload onto project managers (or random other employees) so it is not tying up designer time. Part of the draw, I think, is that we would be able to hire on more untrained designers & PMs and wouldn't have to get them familiar with signage materials/fabrication before pushing them into action. < Please understand, I do not support this part of the concept.

So, basically, the higher ups see the job of "sign designer" as a worthless position? That's the vibe I get with their desire to hire more "untrained" designers. It sounds like a cost cutting ploy: replace an existing designer who has lots of experience, know-how and a bigger pay check, with someone willing to work for cheap. Other people on the team get to cover for what the cheaper employee can't do or doesn't know.

Sign design is not an assembly line job. Not unless the "designer" is doing something like making license plates in the state penitentiary. When I design signs I put a lot more thought into the project than just trying to make it look pretty. An effective sign designer needs to have more knowledge that just being able to type some lettering into a box on a computer screen. He has to know what kind of design is going to be effective in the location where the sign will be installed. What is going to be effectively legible to viewers? The designer must be knowledgeable about materials, what kinds of work his shop can produce in-house, types of work that has to be subbed-out and what kinds of work fits within the customer's ideal budget. Oh, and by the way, the sign designer needs to have some creative talent and knowledge of graphic design principals.

If a sign shop has what amounts to a dummy with a pulse sitting in the chair doing the design work while others write up the specs they're going to end up going round and round, making lots of time-killing revisions. It's impossible to write up specs on a sign without having an actual design up front. You can't do that blind and generate a design after the fact. A designer can't just whip out something without having a good sense of direction of what's going to work. He'll be throwing one design after another otherwise.

We have 4 people in my company doing design work. I mainly work on the bigger electrical sign projects. To me the biggest thing that wastes time is revisions. If the people talking to the customer can get enough of the right kinds of information up front it will increase the odds of getting the design right on the first try.

 

[Kimberly Hiles]

Bobby H Yep. I would tend to agree. But, this was still the task I was given.
Signage design jobs are hard to come by and I owe this company quite a bit. At the end of the day I am going to do my best to complete any work given, in this case that means trying to optimize the workflow in the design department (all 3 of us) even if I can’t control how the rest of the company is run.
There is a 3 year old thread on the front page that seems to sum up the main issue perfectly, but again, that is out of my control.

 

[Bobby H]

If I was working for a sign company that openly desired to hire inexperienced (in other words: cheaper) designers, and try to push more of the "thinking" onto other people I'd be working on my resume and a "plan b." I would put zero trust into an operation willing to go on the cheap with one of the most important jobs in the operation.

Design is what creates the look of any sign. Good looking, effective signs do not exist without someone who at least had a clue to make the sign look that way. Good design doesn't happen by accident. Sign designers are not all equal either. Some are really good at it. A decent number are competent in their jobs. And then there's a bunch who suck. I'm sad to say there is a greater number of ugly, eye-sore looking signs littering our landscapes than attractive signs beautifying it. Anyone running a sign company who thinks it's a good idea to cut corners on their design dept, and just churn and burn "product" out of their doors probably is producing a lot of ugly signs. I would even go so far as to say a bunch of the guys who run corner cutting sign companies probably wouldn't know the difference between an ugly sign and a great looking one. Either they're visually tone deaf or, worse, they just don't care.

But there's a larger, far more sinister issue facing all sign companies nation-wide: the creeping, growing trend of anti-signs city ordinances. I feel like many sign companies are totally unaware of this problem. Just like good looking sign designs, those suffocating sign codes don't happen by accident either. They're usually the result of growing public anger that builds into a backlash against ugly signs. Once the anger reaches a point where city councilpersons are willing to take action on it then it's usually too late for any local sign company to defend themselves on the issue. In my opinion sign companies and local businesses have a civic responsibility in regards to the signs they install on the commercial landscape. If they don't take the responsibility seriously and choose to just churn out as much trashy looking clutter as possible they'll speed up the time it takes to get to that day of reckoning.

A big thing that compounds this sign ordinance issue is the look of upscale cities and suburbs. Most of those places already have very restrictive ordinances in place, some even more restrictive than others. You'll see street signs banned completely in some suburbs. LED message centers may be on the hit list in other places. Edmond, OK banned them. Any town aspiring to improve its position may feel inclined to adopt those same kinds of severe sign codes. So, yeah, the ethic of designing and installing signs done on the cheap, that look cheap, might be good for short term gain. It's lousy for long term strategy.

 

[Mattie_BR]

Bobby H Yep. I would tend to agree. But, this was still the task I was given.
Signage design jobs are hard to come by and I owe this company quite a bit. At the end of the day I am going to do my best to complete any work given, in this case that means trying to optimize the workflow in the design department (all 3 of us) even if I can’t control how the rest of the company is run.
There is a 3 year old thread on the front page that seems to sum up the main issue perfectly, but again, that is out of my control.

You might try an AI plugin alled SpecCtrt - it has functions to automatically mark all specs of an object. So you might save time, including all those details in your design proof.

It's rather inexpensive, $9 a month per user

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Part of the draw, I think, is that we would be able to hire on more untrained designers & PMs and wouldn't have to get them familiar with signage materials/fabrication before pushing them into action. < Please understand, I do not support this part of the concept.

I agree with Bobby on this one. It sounds like they are wanting to cut corners. When a business starts to look for ways to cut corners period, it's typically a downward spiral from there.

I have no problem with trying to improve efficiency (which isn't going to happen, at least in the short term, in this case) and margins, but trying to do so by cutting corners (by what appears to be on the cheap) is not the way to do it.

 

[Bobby H]

All sorts of small steps can be taken to improve efficiency. But it's impossible to automate what is essentially a creative process. No two custom sign projects are the same with all the variables it takes to go from initial contact with the customer to a finished sign design that's ready to go into production.

I work with a number of shop drawing templates when creating my scale drawing sketches. I have various bits of re-usable stuff that can reduce the time it takes creating a finished sketch. I have an organized alpha-numeric file naming system that makes it easy for me to find anything I've done (and when I've done it) since 1995 when long file name capability became a thing. I have file logs for the ancient stuff I made the couple or so years prior to that. That makes it easy to find and re-use various assets from repeat customers and also spot assets that are outdated. I try to work as smart as possible. I use plenty of keyboard short cuts. I use the strengths of multiple applications to create better quality work faster. Knowing the best, most efficient approach to take on a project only comes with experience. A cheaper, less qualified, less experienced designer isn't going to know all that stuff from the start.

Making a design department more efficient involves a lot more than the designer. It's critical for the sales person or whoever is talking to the customer to ask the right questions, get the right kinds of information and pass that along to the designer. If the customer already has a "logo" it's critical to get the right kinds of artwork rather than the first JPEG image the client finds in his "My Documents" folder. Accurate surveys are a must, especially for things like replacement face projects or anything else that involves replacing worn/damaged parts of a sign. Anything that can be done to cut down on revisions is great.