Shop owner passed away...what happens to copyright?

[Texas_Signmaker]

Only thing I would see of real value is the business phone number and website / Google listing. Offer some $ to take those and forward it to her current business.

 

[ColorCrest]

The lady told her that she's mostly paying for the copyright of the logos, not the equipment.

The woman may be misunderstanding or misusing the context of logo(s). Logos may be somewhat minor elements of the sign shop’s mechanical art / design files. Those files are assets and property of the shop which could have significant value to a buyer and save the buyer the expense of re-creating those assets going forward.

Garment / apparel companies especially have a great deal invested in mechanical art file because designs require so many versions, sizes, men’s, women’s, etc.

Who knows what the woman thinks she knows?

 

[Gino]

So your telling me that every logo this guy designed he actually spent the time and money to copyright? Am I missing something here?

Once again, you make me smile with your..... er, whatever.

Do you need to have this explained or are you just being facetious ??

 

[ColorCrest]

Or the contrary, the logos brands are paying the shop as a special vendor for placement on the approved apparel?

EDITED TO ADD: The buyer now buys that relationship.

 

[jochwat]

I think what happened is the man passed away, my friend inquired mostly about the vinyl printer and then the lady told her she didn't want to part anything out and that she would have a meeting with her after she got things settled.

I'm guessing the lady thinks she has leverage over this sale by saying everything is copyrighted, to "force" my friend into buying everything since she's the only competition in town. The lady probably knows everyone will start going to my friend. If my friend was stupid, which she's not, she might be scared into thinking either she has to buy all these copyrights or she has to turn all this business away.

One more facet to this is that the business was connected to the house so there's no real-estate to sell. I think she would be better off trying to part it all out on EBay. Can't blame her for trying to get a mint for it I guess!

I think the best and most cost-effective bet for your friend is to print up some banners and/or send out a business mailing around town, advertising to the effect that there's only one place now for all of your printing needs. Don't forget the address and phone number.

 

[signbrad]

First, in the US, most logos are not protected by copyright. This has long been the stand of both the US Copyright Office and the US Congress.
Most logos consist of nothing more than lettering and/or common shapes, and such things have never qualified for copyright in the US. Many people confuse trademark law with copyright law. Logos are typically protected by trademark, not copyright.

Copyrights are owned by the original artist/author and are part of that person's estate when they die. Just like ownership of a house, the property typically is inherited by next of kin, or whoever is designated in that person's will.

Who owns a trademark? A trademark is owned by the first one to use it in commerce to identify products or services. It doesn't matter who created it or when. Trademark ownership derives from use in commerce (not from registration).

However, production files may be worth something. Back in the day, I sold all my pounce patterns to another shop when I moved to a different state. I got 250 dollars.

Or is she trying to sell a contract that the shop had as a licensed vendor for a company that owns a trademark. A lawyer that works in trademark law would have the best opinion on this.

Brad in Kansas City

 

[Bobby H]

What many of you don't realize is the parameters have changed somewhat. The creation of a logo, brand or combination of such can be considered copyrighted, just by the mere thought of it. Laying out of words or graphics does not constitute a copyrighted piece of property, for the creator or the end user. Again, if these files were treated properly, the customer already owns the rights and the sign guy was already compensated for them. If not, now there is no real proof one way or the other. It would be a very grey area in the law. Besides, these copyrights are are only good for about 70 years.

Technically any of this stuff is supposed to be handled by contract. For instance, anyone doing freelance illustration or graphics work needs to get all the details in writing as well as a purchase order. Otherwise it's just he-said/she-said nonsense that doesn't hold up in court.

Any artwork including digital artwork is technically protected by copyright from the moment of its creation. But things get very murky very fast when dealing with logos and "logos" of local small businesses. Lots of assuming takes place in such transactions as to who owns the artwork, the person who created it or the guy who paid for one banner on which the logo was displayed.

Most sign makers blow-off these issues as not being worth the bother. Even if a copyright was clearly violated it might not be worth the expense of going to court. You might create some original artwork in a building sign design and the client shops your sketches around to rival sign companies. Then the client goes with a rival who reproduces your design and you don't get paid anything. The situation is clearly illegal, but how much is it worth to go to court? The legal expenses outweigh what little you could get in damages. Some of the bottom-feeder sign companies rip off designs with this strategy in mind.

All a legit sign company can do is take steps to cover its backside when creating artwork. Bill up front for any design work, that way it is separate from the sign project. Some sign companies bill clients for each sketch and revision they draw up. Do things to "ruin" any client sketches so rivals can't harvest any vector art from the PDFs (rasterize the content, pollute them with watermarks or other visual texture trash, even distort them slightly out of scale). Limit the amount of details in the sketches so rivals have to do their own friggin' surveys.

In the case of the widow of the sign shop owner, the pile of intellectual property she has is probably worthless. How old are these files? How much of the artwork is up to date? I have art files dating back to the early 1990's, but hardly any of the logo files going back that far are in use anymore. Other details may be valuable, not the outdated logos.

Then there may be technical issues with the art files. What software was being used? And on what kind of computer? For all we know the dead sign guy might have been using an umpteen year old PC running WinXP and outdated or defunct software. Maybe a bunch of the art files are dependent on that. Heck, even the font files the guy had might be of little value if they were proprietary to a dead piece of software or outdated in the case of Type 1 fonts.

If the widow was smart she would unload that gear for whatever she can get for it now. Otherwise she's going to have people hauling it out to the curbside for bulk garbage pick-up day a short time from now.

IMO the customer list with the artwork is the most valuable part, nothing else.

Even that list might be worthless. The guy who cultivated that list is dead. Customers of a local sign company aren't interested in the brand name of that company. They're more interested in the relationships they had with the people who worked there. The people doing the work are what matter. Not a company name.

Two of my co-workers were partners in another sign company and had a falling out with their former partner. Then they came to work at our company. Quite a few of their customers followed them over here.

 

[unclebun]

Brad is right here. Copyright does not enter into the equation. The only thing of large value that the widow has to sell are the art files, which would be worth whatever utility they might have to the buyer. I doubt any one man shop's files are worth $150,000. Maybe $25,000 or even $50,000 with the equipment. It would be different if you were buying an operating business with employees that you could step into and the customers would see no difference. When you buy the art files there is no guarantee that any of the companies that used the old sign shop will ever find and use the new one that has the art files. I would guess fewer than 5% of them would ever be used.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It's like buying a bucket of bolts.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Technically any of this stuff is supposed to be handled by contract. For instance, anyone doing freelance illustration or graphics work needs to get all the details in writing as well as a purchase order. Otherwise it's just he-said/she-said nonsense that doesn't hold up in court.

Any artwork including digital artwork is technically protected by copyright from the moment of its creation. But things get very murky very fast when dealing with logos and "logos" of local small businesses. Lots of assuming takes place in such transactions as to who owns the artwork, the person who created it or the guy who paid for one banner on which the logo was displayed.

Most sign makers blow-off these issues as not being worth the bother. Even if a copyright was clearly violated it might not be worth the expense of going to court. You might create some original artwork in a building sign design and the client shops your sketches around to rival sign companies. Then the client goes with a rival who reproduces your design and you don't get paid anything. The situation is clearly illegal, but how much is it worth to go to court? The legal expenses outweigh what little you could get in damages. Some of the bottom-feeder sign companies rip off designs with this strategy in mind.

All a legit sign company can do is take steps to cover its backside when creating artwork. Bill up front for any design work, that way it is separate from the sign project. Some sign companies bill clients for each sketch and revision they draw up. Do things to "ruin" any client sketches so rivals can't harvest any vector art from the PDFs (rasterize the content, pollute them with watermarks or other visual texture trash, even distort them slightly out of scale). Limit the amount of details in the sketches so rivals have to do their own friggin' surveys.

In the case of the widow of the sign shop owner, the pile of intellectual property she has is probably worthless. How old are these files? How much of the artwork is up to date? I have art files dating back to the early 1990's, but hardly any of the logo files going back that far are in use anymore. Other details may be valuable, not the outdated logos.

Then there may be technical issues with the art files. What software was being used? And on what kind of computer? For all we know the dead sign guy might have been using an umpteen year old PC running WinXP and outdated or defunct software. Maybe a bunch of the art files are dependent on that. Heck, even the font files the guy had might be of little value if they were proprietary to a dead piece of software or outdated in the case of Type 1 fonts.

If the widow was smart she would unload that gear for whatever she can get for it now. Otherwise she's going to have people hauling it out to the curbside for bulk garbage pick-up day a short time from now.



Even that list might be worthless. The guy who cultivated that list is dead. Customers of a local sign company aren't interested in the brand name of that company. They're more interested in the relationships they had with the people who worked there. The people doing the work are what matter. Not a company name.

Two of my co-workers were partners in another sign company and had a falling out with their former partner. Then they came to work at our company. Quite a few of their customers followed them over here.

Go re-read what Brad just wrote. Nothing gets murky.

 

[Bobby H]

Go re-read what Brad just wrote. Nothing gets murky.

Sign designs can be more than just stock lettering or whatever someone is passing off as a "logo." If you're spending your time creating some artwork from scratch as part of a design that does indeed have value and can be protected by copyright. But go back and read what I said in my previous post. Trying to sue an unethical client or a rival sign company practicing plagiarism is often pointless. The thing to do is give clients sketches that are completely worthless to a competing sign company. And an aging widow sitting on a pile of old sign making computer files is not sitting on much. It's not an IP goldmine at all. It doesn't sound like the equipment is either.

 

[Gino]

Ya know, y'all are getting way ahead of yourselves. Nowhere does anything indicate this person did any huge type signs, so I doubt there is much need to discuss welders, buckets or crane trucks or anything much above the inkjet plotters mentioned, but on the other hand, nowhere was it mentioned if the logos and files were bought by his company for sports teams, disney applications and all kindsa other things. He could easily have spent a small fortune over the years and now it's hers to sell. Whether she was ill informed or just guessing, She's entitled to whatever she wants.

There was a woman on here a few years back who came here for help to sell her husband's equipment, tools and whatnot. Her husband was a member here and they fell on bad times when he took seriously ill. but she came here on his membership and tried to find things out and you people railroaded her outta town so fast, I'll bet her head is still spinning. Y'all NEVER put the shoe on the other foot, do ya ?? Y'all know how devious and bad these people are, if they're not a member. You should ALL be ashamed of yourselves. Your insight on nothingness doesn't help the OP or the person she's trying to help and it certainly doesn't help the widow. But....... ya'll know the rules enough to muddy the waters and ruin it for others. Pathetic buncha losers.

 

[truckgraphics]

If we print a logo for a company, the company owns the rights - whether trademark or copyright, I couldn't say. That's up to the company and they own it.

However, if we took their logo and vectorized it so it prints clearly in large format, then we own the vectorized image, unless the company paid us to have it vectorized or if they want to pay us for the artwork. We're not just going to give it to our competitors if a customer wants to go elsewhere, but they can pay us for it. Or create their own files at their own expense or the expense of the customer.

So, the artwork this company holds in its files for its customers isn't their's to use, but it's not for another sign shop to use unless that shop wants to pay for it.

In other words, we don't have the rights to plaster our customer, "Bob's Sandwiches" on our cars, but the files we have that read "Bob's Sandwiches" are ours and may have value. Especially if we were to sell our business and introduce the new owner to our customers and suggest they give them their business. Because we/the new owner has the customer's artwork, set up and often refined, as they like it to appear on their vehicles, buildings and such.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Ya know, y'all are getting way ahead of yourselves. Nowhere does anything indicate this person did any huge type signs, so I doubt there is much need to discuss welders, buckets or crane trucks or anything much above the inkjet plotters mentioned, but on the other hand, nowhere was it mentioned if the logos and files were bought by his company for sports teams, disney applications and all kindsa other things. He could easily have spent a small fortune over the years and now it's hers to sell. Whether she was ill informed or just guessing, She's entitled to whatever she wants.

There was a woman on here a few years back who came here for help to sell her husband's equipment, tools and whatnot. Her husband was a member here and they fell on bad times when he took seriously ill. but she came here on his membership and tried to find things out and you people railroaded her outta town so fast, I'll bet her head is still spinning. Y'all NEVER put the shoe on the other foot, do ya ?? Y'all know how devious and bad these people are, if they're not a member. You should ALL be ashamed of yourselves. Your insight on nothingness doesn't help the OP or the person she's trying to help and it certainly doesn't help the widow. But....... ya'll know the rules enough to muddy the waters and ruin it for others. Pathetic buncha losers.

If she bought the rights to use things like sports logos, I'm pretty sure that she doesn't have the rights to sell those to anyone else.
I think it was more about the bad attitude but it is understandable during a time of stress.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

If we print a logo for a company, the company owns the rights - whether trademark or copyright, I couldn't say. That's up to the company and they own it.

However, if we took their logo and vectorized it so it prints clearly in large format, then we own the vectorized image, unless the company paid us to have it vectorized or if they want to pay us for the artwork. We're not just going to give it to our competitors if a customer wants to go elsewhere, but they can pay us for it. Or create their own files at their own expense or the expense of the customer.

So, the artwork this company holds in its files for its customers isn't their's to use, but it's not for another sign shop to use unless that shop wants to pay for it.

In other words, we don't have the rights to plaster our customer, "Bob's Sandwiches" on our cars, but the files we have that read "Bob's Sandwiches" are ours and may have value. Especially if we were to sell our business and introduce the new owner to our customers and suggest they give them their business. Because we/the new owner has the customer's artwork, set up and often refined, as they like it to appear on their vehicles, buildings and such.

Yes. More than just files, you are buying a customer list. If you're willing to hustle, you'd have a leg up moving those customers over to you if they know you have their logo and can produce the same things they have been buying from the other company. The general public doesn't know or need to know that recreating things is not that difficult to do, they generally assume that it is. So there is some added value with that, probably not $150k but more than 20 bucks.

 

[Stacey K]

It was a small shop, the father the main sign-maker and the adult son, I believe part-time, helping with installs. When I asked why the son wasn't taking it over I was told he was recently arrested for a crime against a child.

It appears they subbed some larger sandblasted signs and installed. He did install some lighted sign faces using a bucket truck but no truck included with the sale, probably rented. He provided more basic services that one-man sign shops do, with the addition of aircraft, letterboards, lighted signs, snowmobiles and silhouettes (?). Looks like he's been in business for a while so I'm sure he has accumulated a bunch of crap, just like the rest of us. Plenty of it can probably be tossed. Most of us are guilty of keeping 2 yards of this and that but in reality, we will probably never use it again. I just don't believe he had a pallet of aluminum, it's a shop inside a house, how much stuff can he really have?

 

[Humble PM]

Whadja doin sneakin into my office.

And where'dya find the chair?
Damn things been missing since the dolphins showed their passports

 

[Adam Vreeke]

Whadja doin sneakin into my office.

And where'dya find the chair?
Damn things been missing since the dolphins showed their passports

Better than Gino's office....

 

[Adam Vreeke]

For instance, why does he finish all of the redbull, but only half finishes the lemonade...

that's not lemonade is it?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

My desk is always very clean