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sign man busted
- Thread starter John Butto
- Start date
Pat Whatley
New Member
So one of his competitors tipped off Underwriters Labs? Good.
marcsitkin
New Member
If they caught one guy here in South Florida, it means there are probably several more guys doing this. This is the scam capitol of the world.
G-Artist
New Member
While I do not condone what that person did and he is, indeed, a criminal - I do take issue with the various political subdivisions mandating a UL label.
The article was misleading due to the fact the reporters do not have a clue as to how UL and the industry work.
The bottom line is if a shop who is UL rated builds two electric signs and both are to code in every way (which is only a min. standard) and both probably built better than code the only difference is the one with the UL label is hugely more expensive. Why should that be?
I think that if you look really, really close that UL borders on a criminal enterprise itself.
More on that some other day.
The article was misleading due to the fact the reporters do not have a clue as to how UL and the industry work.
The bottom line is if a shop who is UL rated builds two electric signs and both are to code in every way (which is only a min. standard) and both probably built better than code the only difference is the one with the UL label is hugely more expensive. Why should that be?
I think that if you look really, really close that UL borders on a criminal enterprise itself.
More on that some other day.
Craig Sjoquist
New Member
Agrees with ...G-Artist...and if you read farther $25,000 bail.. for a crime no worse then not a complete stop at a red light while making a right turn.
UL as stated is only Min. standard, this does not mean he built those shabby and fires broke out because of.
Our government has gotten out of wack because of laws and most just cost money for reasons that we as a business would do anyway just to keep customers.
UL as stated is only Min. standard, this does not mean he built those shabby and fires broke out because of.
Our government has gotten out of wack because of laws and most just cost money for reasons that we as a business would do anyway just to keep customers.
ddarlak
Go Bills!
yea, pretty sure its Obama's fault......
UL has nothing to do with Our goverment. They are independent company that provides a service.
every electric sign by law doesn't have to have a UL label, most places require one as it's cheaper to have the sign company go through a recognized leader in inspections as opposed to your local goverment inspecting it themselves..... i'm sure if there was a USA-UL it would cost alot more........
G-Artist
New Member
Hey, when you have as much money as the UL folks, you can hire the best lobbyists to assure you stay on top.
For what UL charges, they should have an inspector check each and every sign before it goes out the door. That will never happen. So it still comes down to the actual craftsmanship by the builder of that sign on that day. Should we demand serial numbers like they have on automobiles so, like a car, we know how to read them and never buy one made on a Monday? LOL.
For what UL charges, they should have an inspector check each and every sign before it goes out the door. That will never happen. So it still comes down to the actual craftsmanship by the builder of that sign on that day. Should we demand serial numbers like they have on automobiles so, like a car, we know how to read them and never buy one made on a Monday? LOL.
signmeup
New Member
"Investigators interviewed city employees who said electrical inspectors would not have approved permits for Glover to install the signs without recognized safety labels, according to the report. They did not know the labels he used were fake."
Making fake labels was a pretty bad idea but....what do these inspectors inspect? The labels? If that's the case how the heck does it stop people with legitimate stickers making crappy unsafe signs? If the inspectors inspected the signs you wouldn't need UL at all. UL is just a money grab that serves no real purpose in the case of sign cabinets.
Making fake labels was a pretty bad idea but....what do these inspectors inspect? The labels? If that's the case how the heck does it stop people with legitimate stickers making crappy unsafe signs? If the inspectors inspected the signs you wouldn't need UL at all. UL is just a money grab that serves no real purpose in the case of sign cabinets.
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signmeup
New Member
To further my comments: I bought a sign from a shop who is approved to make cabinet signs. (I'm not...so I don't) I installed the sign with permits. I went to install the tubes and that's when I noticed the sign was not built correctly. It had no spring sockets for one end of of the tubes. They had made the cabinet a little too short and didn't have room for the proper sockets. Rather than fix their mistake they tried to hide it. They told me I was seeing things at first. Then they told me they always do it that way and I just had to press on the raceway to get the tubes in. I said make me a new one and deliver it right away or I was reporting them and forwarding photos and all the emails to the proper authorities. I had my new sign within days. The moral of the story is that the UL sticker program is a total sham. Only inspecting each and every sign will ensure that each and every sign is properly made. Even then it only assumes you can't bribe an electrical inspector, or that the inspector is competent.
signage
New Member
When you guys say the inspecting of cabinets what are these inspectors to follow?
The inspectors that inspect per the NEC use interpretation to determine if something passes or not. In the same area I have had one inspector pass an install did the exact same thing and another inspector fail it. The one that failed it said it is his interpretation that it did not follow code, when I spoke to the other inspector he said that is the way it goes and gave me his personal phone number and said to call him and he would inspect my work!
The UL on the other hand is a private group that makes sure you follow their rules/standards, which has been checked by several different authorities, so this makes it easier for local governing bodies to insure standards are met! Does this say it is the only correct way no, but it is to have been a proven and accepted way!
The inspectors that inspect per the NEC use interpretation to determine if something passes or not. In the same area I have had one inspector pass an install did the exact same thing and another inspector fail it. The one that failed it said it is his interpretation that it did not follow code, when I spoke to the other inspector he said that is the way it goes and gave me his personal phone number and said to call him and he would inspect my work!
The UL on the other hand is a private group that makes sure you follow their rules/standards, which has been checked by several different authorities, so this makes it easier for local governing bodies to insure standards are met! Does this say it is the only correct way no, but it is to have been a proven and accepted way!
signmeup
New Member
How about they see if it's build safely with regards to the electrical components. Approved parts should be used. The marrettes should be installed properly and no bare wire should be showing. No wires should be going through sharp edged holes. Boy...that sure sounds like rocket science! The average electrician would be overwhelmed by such complexity!
signage
New Member
Signmeup a lot of these municipal inspector only have particle experience in the building industry and most only in the actually building of structure not the whole system! What the UL label is supposed to show that everything you stated are adhered too! Also they are supposed to inspect said shops yearly on unexpected times to be sure they are following the standards!
I do agree with you that the inspectors should know what to look for but how many have you ever had that climbed up a ladder to check anything? They are government employees just CTOA (covering their own ass)
I do agree with you that the inspectors should know what to look for but how many have you ever had that climbed up a ladder to check anything? They are government employees just CTOA (covering their own ass)
CheapVehicleWrap
New Member
From what I remember 20 years ago it was 17k maybe 24k to inspect 1 model. If that model was changed in anyway during fabrication or revamped it would require re-inspection.
signmeup
New Member
What is the point of having an inspector that has no idea if the thing they are inspecting is wired properly? Why not get a licenced electrician to inspect it? Up here we get a licenced electrician to connect the sign to the mains. What if he spotted something that was not right? Maybe he could refuse to connect it until it was safe. Oh wait....that's exactly what he does anyway.
Also, up here I can make a cabinet sign and have it inspected. Only problem is I have to drive it out to the inspector's place to have it done. It's a 2 hour drive each way plus the $250 inspection fee. That's why I had the "experts" do that last can for me. Too expensive to do it myself. Now when someone asks if I make cabinet signs I just say no. That's revenue I can't have because of stupid rules.
Also, up here I can make a cabinet sign and have it inspected. Only problem is I have to drive it out to the inspector's place to have it done. It's a 2 hour drive each way plus the $250 inspection fee. That's why I had the "experts" do that last can for me. Too expensive to do it myself. Now when someone asks if I make cabinet signs I just say no. That's revenue I can't have because of stupid rules.
G-Artist
New Member
@signmeup Boy, did you hit some GREAT points!!!
Keep at it. I also think we may have used the same vendor on a cabinet. Something very similar happened to me once.
In general:
In my state there are two types of "electricians." Sign electricians and general contractors. Sign guys cannot do anything but wire the sign and stub out. That is the extent of their electric parameters.
Our state law says that a sign has to be on a dedicated circuit. Sign electricians can't wire a panel to meet that, only a general electrician can. So, the general electrician wires the panel and extends the terminal to the sign where the sign electrician can hook it up (or either of them can hook it up but it is preferred that the general electrician do that). Fair enough. EXCEPT - the general electrician could conceivably install, wire and hook up neon and other high voltage without a clue as to code as they have zero experience or training. They are clueless to simple things like the difference between wet, damp and dry and what the regs are on each. Yet there is nothing within their electrical test that I have ever seen that even quizzes them about sign electrics, much less neon. A disaster waiting to happen. The law and code should be a two-way street. The law/code should have a sign guy responsible for the internals of an electric sign and not allow a general electrician to mess in that area. I rant, sorry.
As to electricians in general. I happen to have a good one as a neighbor. He is also a top-of-the-line estimator/planner. I once asked his advice on a build. He was wise enough to tell me that he knew nothing of signs, especially neon, and find someone familiar with those codes as they are intricate and for the most part a bit confusing (at least to him). If they were not a bit confusing at times I wouldn't have the need to try and solicit some free advice...lol.
Keep at it. I also think we may have used the same vendor on a cabinet. Something very similar happened to me once.
In general:
In my state there are two types of "electricians." Sign electricians and general contractors. Sign guys cannot do anything but wire the sign and stub out. That is the extent of their electric parameters.
Our state law says that a sign has to be on a dedicated circuit. Sign electricians can't wire a panel to meet that, only a general electrician can. So, the general electrician wires the panel and extends the terminal to the sign where the sign electrician can hook it up (or either of them can hook it up but it is preferred that the general electrician do that). Fair enough. EXCEPT - the general electrician could conceivably install, wire and hook up neon and other high voltage without a clue as to code as they have zero experience or training. They are clueless to simple things like the difference between wet, damp and dry and what the regs are on each. Yet there is nothing within their electrical test that I have ever seen that even quizzes them about sign electrics, much less neon. A disaster waiting to happen. The law and code should be a two-way street. The law/code should have a sign guy responsible for the internals of an electric sign and not allow a general electrician to mess in that area. I rant, sorry.
As to electricians in general. I happen to have a good one as a neighbor. He is also a top-of-the-line estimator/planner. I once asked his advice on a build. He was wise enough to tell me that he knew nothing of signs, especially neon, and find someone familiar with those codes as they are intricate and for the most part a bit confusing (at least to him). If they were not a bit confusing at times I wouldn't have the need to try and solicit some free advice...lol.