Sign printer VS Canon 8300 printer ?s

[EddieHollywood]

Hi
I am new at this.
We have a Canon 8300 44 inch printer and the prints are amazing it is a 12 ink printer.

So far i have printed on 8 and 16 mil banner stock, Photo paper, Matt papers, Back light film and phototex all with outstanding looking full color prints.

Now my ?

The Canon inks are not rated for outdoor signs for any long time out side. On some things it says up to 6 to 8 months.

We have been getting requests for making some outdoor signs and i love designing things and can see this would be a good business for us. My wife would be a great outdoor sales person and she is ready to start selling wanting me to make up flayers for her to start taking around..

If we buy a laminator then the Canon prints should last for well over a year outdoors.

What is long enoff for outdoor banners everyone sells.?

Any down side to doing this VS a printer like a Mimaki, Roland or HP sign printer?

The Canon cost so much less then the other sign printer brands and the print quality is so much better then them all and the cost is much lower.
After a rebate we only paid $2200 for the Canon that included full ink tanks.

They also have a 60 inch version we could buy and they just come out with a S version of 8300 44 inch that is much faster 40% with 8 inks and should have the 60 inch S version out soon.

They use double print heads that from everything i have read are much better then Epson heads and you can change them out your self when needed.

It seems like using the Canon and getting the better super high quality image quality and a laminator to extend the outdoor life would be the best way to go VS the other printers that cost 4 to5 times as much and then you still need a laminator for many of them to.

What are your thoughts on all this?

Also the Canon has 100% no smell at all when printing and most items are dry ready to use right out of the printer. We are framing prints with in seconds of them being printed.

We are looking at selling store window posters, in door and out door Banners, Backlit signs wall sticks with phototex and if we got the 60 inch version larger out door banners and signs and wall signs.

Seems like if Canon would just come out with a new ink like Epson did and it would work in the 44 and 60 inch Canon printers this would be the best all around printer for super quality and price!!

Thanks

 

[artbot]

if you put dye inks in any of these printers (mimaki, roland, mutoh) the image quality would be outstanding. you will never get the intense vibrant color with pigmented inks, they are perfectly transparent so they don't let the light transmit back from the white substrate. and even comparing epson dye to canon dye the prints most likely would be identically vibrant. no one has a secret formula for dye ink. if canon comes out with an archival dye ink, you will see a degradation in color.

also, does lyson have archival dyes for imagePROGRAF?

 

[noregrets]

if you put dye inks in any of these printers (mimaki, roland, mutoh) the image quality would be outstanding. you will never get the intense vibrant color with pigmented inks, they are perfectly transparent so they don't let the light transmit back from the white substrate. and even comparing epson dye to canon dye the prints most likely would be identically vibrant. no one has a secret formula for dye ink. if canon comes out with an archival dye ink, you will see a degradation in color.

also, does lyson have archival dyes for imagePROGRAF?

The Canon and also the Epson does use pigment inks, not dye

 

[noregrets]

A lot of it will depend on what your main market will end up being. If it is going to be indoor posters and POS stuff then the Canon will be perfect for this.

Once you start getting into vinyls and outdoor stuff, I would look at getting a solvent/latex printer. The media for the aqueous printer (Canon) needs to be coated and ends up being a lot more expensive than the media for the solvent/latex printers.

You might save money on not getting another printer for the outdoor stuff, but long term the added media costs and lack of flexability will probably cost you more.....

Just my opinion....

 

[SightLine]

Regardless of the inks the machine types are just not really comparable. Water based inks just do not have the ability to hold up for outdoor use. You need solvent, eco-solvent, or the new latex inks. Sort of like comparing a Toyota pickup truck to a huge dump truck. Sure they can both haul stuff but thats about it - they are machines intended for totally different purposes.

Aside from that - some of the better solvent printers (and the new HP latex machines) do print with absolutley amazing quality. 99.9% of people seeing a print from one that was printed at a photographic resolution are stunned by how good the prints look. With solvent you do have ink odor - but the best long term UV resistance. For either purpose - if your intent is for a print to last more than a year or two outdoors - a laminator is also pretty much mandatory.

 

[artbot]

i thought 6-8 month longevity was dye only. lysonic dye ink is archival.

 

[EddieHollywood]

The 8300 is using pigmented inks and we are getting intense vibrant colors with no problem.
In the past two days i have printer 24 16x25 photo posters, 8 24x36 photo posters, all my back lit signs, window banners for my store and some phototex all with outstanding color. Using a Calabrated NEC 26 monitor i am getting almost 100% what i see on the monitor printed.

Lyson i will have to take a look.

if you put dye inks in any of these printers (mimaki, roland, mutoh) the image quality would be outstanding. you will never get the intense vibrant color with pigmented inks, they are perfectly transparent so they don't let the light transmit back from the white substrate. and even comparing epson dye to canon dye the prints most likely would be identically vibrant. no one has a secret formula for dye ink. if canon comes out with an archival dye ink, you will see a degradation in color.

also, does lyson have archival dyes for imagePROGRAF?

 

[EddieHollywood]

Media cost i have not looked into that.

What media do most people use for outdoor signs so i can look it up and see the cost of each?

I guess i need to look at ink cost to.

I have print samples from the new Epson GS6000 sign printer and the Seiko v64S and H versions. The canon prints better then all of the samples we have been sent from the others its very easy to see.

Right now we are printing full boarder less photos and the prints are better then photo lab quality.

How much would it cost to get into a 60 inch Latex print system. Anything now about to come out worth waiting for?

We do not want any ink smell as we are in a non vented area.

Thanks

A lot of it will depend on what your main market will end up being. If it is going to be indoor posters and POS stuff then the Canon will be perfect for this.

Once you start getting into vinyls and outdoor stuff, I would look at getting a solvent/latex printer. The media for the aqueous printer (Canon) needs to be coated and ends up being a lot more expensive than the media for the solvent/latex printers.

You might save money on not getting another printer for the outdoor stuff, but long term the added media costs and lack of flexability will probably cost you more.....

Just my opinion....

 

[EddieHollywood]

I have been looking at the media prices and from what i am finding it seems to about the same price some are even less for the canon.
I am looking at banner media that is the same thinkness.
But i do not know one brand from the other so i might be looking at wrong brands.

Like NeFlex 10mil textile banner 36x100 sells for $169 or 60x100 for $281
VS
Lexjet Toughcoat Poly Extra 9 mil 36x100 sells for $151
or 60x100 for $252

i do see some other items that do cost more but only around 10 to $15 for each 100 foot roll


I have been reading about the HP Designjet L25500 Latex Ink Printer and i like it no smell and instant dry prints out of the box with 3 year outdoor with no laminet needed.

Says it can print on a lot of things other printers can not print on.

 

[artbot]

well, i've been around a good bit and for my personal sensibilities, any manufacturer that tells you that their beautiful inks are pigmented yet only last 6-8 months is using the word pigmented as more of a marketing term than a chemical description.

lysonic (archival dye, mildly pigmented) after testing is rated for 15-88 years depending on the media (glossy media is lower uv resistance).

lyson cave paint (pigmented ink) are certified for 75 years. i've seen test results as high as 120 years.

 

[Bill Modzel]

I have the same Canon iPF8300. I purchased it for fine art reproduction and indoor graphics. I have an HP9000s for all the outdoor stuff. Before the HP9000 I had an HP5000 with Pigmented inks. I could get a year or so outdoor with the 5000, double that with laminate.
I'm not sure about the Lyson inks. These are 12 color printers. In addition to the normal CMYC, Lc, Lm, they have Matt black. RGG, Light an Medium gray. There's about a 20 larger color gamut than standard.

 

[EddieHollywood]

Lyson says they have no inks for the canon.

 

[Jim Hancock]

Perhaps some clarification on ink longevity... The 6-8 months lifespan is typically for water based pigmented ink outdoors. Prints done on these type of printers, i.e. Canon, Epson, HP, for indoor use have a much longer lifespan, i.e. in the 25-100 year range or longer, depending upon the specific ink and paper combination and display environment. Water based pigment inks will last longer than water based dye inks, although I believe there have been some improvement in the dye ink longevity recently. It's the UV content outdoors that kills the water based inks. A UV blocking laminate helps, but they will still not last anywhere near as long as even an unlaminated solvent image. I spent some years as a fine art printer and did a lot of research in this area, as I didn't want customers coming back complaining about fading.

 

[artbot]

all this discussion about water based got me wishing i was doing giclees on the side. my main buyer, purchases tons of prints. after doing the research, the HP z3100 44 seems like a category killer for water based. although a bit slower than canon. but the price of ink and paper was off the charts. these printers cost a dollar a square foot in ink!!! the triangle ink in mimaki is considered "free". a large order would be $1,000's in ink cost alone.

i wish there were some decent test by wilhelm for solvent ink. it seems strange with all the printers installed running solvent that category of ink is ignored and we are stuck with manufacturers claims that to me aren't at all scientific.

in the end, if it's outdoor, go solvent. the ink is cheap, the media is cheap, no one cares about detail on a van flying by on the highway. water based is for something with a much higher margin to cover the materials.

 

[EddieHollywood]

Dose anyone make a good 16 mil banner for the Canon that is a satin or gloss that is water proof for low use outdoor.

I have the matte and it works good but most banners we see around town are all a gloss or satin look.

I have a customer that will need lots of banners for events they market but each banner will only see around a week to two weeks of outdoor use till the event is over and be tossed out.

We are looking at a selling price of $3.50 A sf

On the Canon when using a matte banner media the ink cost is lower then when printing a high end photo we can print in the 300 dpi mode in place of 600 lowering the ink cost a lot.
I am printing on Matter photo paper at 300 and getting outstanding prints using much less ink using a custom profile for this.
I think this gets the ink cost down to around 60 cents a sf for 100% full coverage at very good photo quality

 

[EddieHollywood]

Getting my job cost-- is this a good my cost for this??

In the canon it has a good job cost function.

Is this a good cost. How much lower would it of cost if any if done on a different printer?

I just checked my job cost for making a 36 inch by 7 foot banner i did for a trade show. It had full photo quality people images running across it from one side to the other but not as tall as 36 plus a lot of text. I would say around 75% ink coverage.

It took 13.42 to print and cost a total of $24.70 to print including the ink cost and 16 mil matte banner media.

How is my print speed compared to other sign printers? for this.

My ink cost was $5.86 so for this 21 SF banner my ink cost was around 28 cents a SF a lot less then i thought it would be.


We had a lot of comment of how good the print quality was and how much better it was then what others at the show had printed from another place here in town. They could not get the really good photo quality in the skin tones and fine detail we have on our banner.
This is leading to more banner printing jobs it looks like.

 

[Flame]

3.5 a square foot for just any run of the mill banner job? Dude I get more than double that. You're killing yourself!

And even though you're in love with the print quality, who cares. a old Sp300 has good enough print quality for 99% of any sign job you'll tackle. If you want to get into fine art, get into fine art and use the right printer. If you want to get into signs, get into signs and use the right printer.

If you want to tradeshow displays, you can get away with murder on inks honestly. So little UV exposure, but if you want to get into the sign business, you have to take that into some serious consideration. So, simply decide which business you are really interested in.

If that makes sense?

 

[EddieHollywood]

Hi I am looking at other printer as well just for signs looking at the Epson and HP laytex.

The 3.5 price is based on what others in the area are selling it for 4.0 a sf. I can not charge more then others or i will not sell any.

We would be printing a lot of banner signs that have full photos of people on them all the time.
We shoot the photos here in our studio of the customer or who they would want so the image quality is a factor for this.

So the going rate would be around 8 sf that would be great if i could get that.

 

[spur]

"The 3.5 price is based on what others in the area are selling it for 4.0 a sf. I can not charge more then others or i will not sell any."



"We had a lot of comment of how good the print quality was and how much better it was then what others at the show had printed from another place here in town. They could not get the really good photo quality in the skin tones and fine detail we have on our banner.
This is leading to more banner printing jobs it looks like."



So which is it? Seems like a contradiction to me. $3.50 a sf on coated banner material is not leaving you a whole heckuva lot of profit.

 

[Flame]

The 3.5 price is based on what others in the area are selling it for 4.0 a sf. I can not charge more then others or i will not sell any.

I understand that selling banners for a lot more than everyone else won't get you far, but I highly doubt all the sign shops in the area are selling at 4, sorry. I have peeps in town selling $3 a square, and 2 miles away are at $18 a square. It's a variety, a mix. And there's the bottom feeders, and there's the higher end shops.

You've already positioned yourself, in my eyes, as a "el cheapo" shop. If everyone is selling at 4...why are you at 3.5? Do you have NOTHING to convince people to buy from you at 4? Or even 4.5? What about print quality? You talked a LOT about print quality, why not use it as a selling point? Or turnaround time? Or banner thickness? Or edge sealing quality? or just having a nice showroom?

Sorry, seems like you're just another bottom feeder. No one needs more bottom feeders!!!!