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Skateboard Heat Transfer Material
- Thread starter Mr. Signboy
- Start date
SGC
New Member
What you saw in that video is not HTV, it's the ink-only transfer I've been speaking about. I print my boards the exact same way. The man in that video is one of the most respected people in skateboarding, and runs one of the largest manufacturing companies in Mexico that produces for many internationally distributed professional skateboard brands. Again, I have no reason to lie and have nothing to gain.
okay, again, it is a naming thing - if you look at the actual "HTV", not all is actual "vinyl" anymore, PET is used, PVC also (though this is a kind of vinyl).... my point is that it is a heat transfer, and you can readily buy rolls of it to use. it is just a substrate with a heat activated adhesive. anyone who can print wraps should be able to print on this material as well - and you could use a good air release vinyl to do the same thing. Some of the wrap vinyl will actually give a more durable end result, especially if the entire surface is wrapped as in the video.
BigDog, so the white in the video is printed image and not substrate? it looks to me like the image was printed on a white HTV. (and just to be clear, more than just ink is being transferred, there is a substrate and an adhesive... if you doubt, cut a piece of what you use and look at the cross-section under you loupe or preferable a 60x magnifier.)
SGC
New Member
When I say ink-only heat transfer, it's REAL important that you understand what I mean. Only the ink is transferred to the surface. No vinyl, no pet, no this, no that, JUST ink.
HTV, be it vinyl, pet, I do not care, they all have a carrier of some sort that transfers with the ink to the application surface, meaning there's more than ink on the skateboards, which, as mentioned prior, alters the usability of the skateboard. Vinyl, PET, whatever, it was buckle and peel off when introduced to grinding and such.
As for the second comment. The thin clear PET sheet he's holding, and applying ONLY acts as a carrier. It remains fully intact and is thrown away whole. The only things that are on the surface of that PET are INK for the graphic, WHITE ink for color density, and depending on who makes the transfer, a micro-thin screen printed heat-activated adhesive meant to bond with clear coats.
I have purchased and applied thousands of these sheets. Chances are this man and I buy from the same factories. I promise, I know what I am talking about here.
... you can get the HTV in rolls from Heat Transfer Warehouse, Grimco, Fellers, etc... anyone can print it.
You can find 'ink only' and 'no-weed' HTV that will "transfer only the ink".
now let's think logically about "Only the ink is transferred...:" what adheres the ink to the surface? inks are made up of binders and pigments, the binders do not adhere to things, they have mechanical binding that occurs when they dry (very over-simplified)... so in the rare instance where you actually remove just ink from the substrate, it will not adhere to anything else. YOU MUST HAVE ADHESIVE. I believe your "Heat Transfer" was made by printing on a substrate that has a very thin, heat activated adhesive. again, if there is no adhesive, there is no adhesion as the inks use binders which are already bound when you apply them. (I have a lot of difficulty talking with printers as my background was chemistry before printing - and the printing industry in general has really screwed-up the naming of things, as well as false thinking about what is actually happening on a molecular level to keep ink attached to product. but I too know what I am talking about here.)
You can find 'ink only' and 'no-weed' HTV that will "transfer only the ink".
now let's think logically about "Only the ink is transferred...:" what adheres the ink to the surface? inks are made up of binders and pigments, the binders do not adhere to things, they have mechanical binding that occurs when they dry (very over-simplified)... so in the rare instance where you actually remove just ink from the substrate, it will not adhere to anything else. YOU MUST HAVE ADHESIVE. I believe your "Heat Transfer" was made by printing on a substrate that has a very thin, heat activated adhesive. again, if there is no adhesive, there is no adhesion as the inks use binders which are already bound when you apply them. (I have a lot of difficulty talking with printers as my background was chemistry before printing - and the printing industry in general has really screwed-up the naming of things, as well as false thinking about what is actually happening on a molecular level to keep ink attached to product. but I too know what I am talking about here.)
SGC
New Member
You're really over thinking this.
I have tested all of these products, trying to find something that represents the wear and feel of the transitional skateboard transfer. None of them do. The ones that you feel like would work, end up leaving a gummy film because they're meant to stretch, because they're meant for clothing. The ones that claim to only transfer the ink, it terms of HTV, inkjet transfer and so on, include a releasing agent that mucks up the final product.
I spent a year prototyping this, and many years after playing around with it. This is my industry. I do this for a living. I don't produce signs, I don't produce stickers, I produce skateboard products and skateboard products only.
I'll clearly state this again, because it seems to be going nowhere;
There are plenty of products on the public market that will allow you to transfer a graphics or vinyl to wood. Tons. Etsy is full of these products that people make with a heat press in their basement. I am not saying a skateboard is any different, they can too have graphics applied to them via market available means. BUT, none of these market available means, that you can simply put into your printer or plotter will yield a product that will be acceptable to the modern skateboarder. None of these options are SKATEABLE. The skateboard heat transfer, or the direct surface screen printing method smears and scratches because there's only things on the surface that once cured to the surface are hard, and within the same chemical compound are Water Based Ink (posters, not shirts) or Solvent Based SCREEN PRINTING ink (hard cure). Both of these methods, and the inks used, were specifically chosen or designed for skateboarding because of how they react when SKATED.
If you just want produce wall art, collectables, something for small children, the other methods will work just fine. If you want to produce skatepark quality skateboards, that have been made relatively the same since the late 90's, then you produce or buy or apply the aforementioned way.
I said nothing about clothing, look for HTV for "HARD SURFACE" it looks exactly like the product in the video - it does not stretch and is meant to adhere "ink only" to hard surfaces.
I fully believe YOUR company will not use anything other that the heat transfer you currently have. I also believe there are many ways to put ink on substrate and that other skateboard companies use other methods. also I fully believe that regardless of what you call it, the product you use has an adhesive to adhere the fully bound pigment and binder of the ink to your final substrate. (you either have mechanical binding or chemical adhesion - or you have ink falling off.)
I fully believe YOUR company will not use anything other that the heat transfer you currently have. I also believe there are many ways to put ink on substrate and that other skateboard companies use other methods. also I fully believe that regardless of what you call it, the product you use has an adhesive to adhere the fully bound pigment and binder of the ink to your final substrate. (you either have mechanical binding or chemical adhesion - or you have ink falling off.)
White Haus
Not a Newbie
Well I've definitely learned a lot from this thread, I had no idea skateboard graphics were done that way. That guy in that video definitely seems like a wizard. Cool shop and tools he's got there, makes me want to build stuff.
SGC
New Member
And I am telling you, that this is an industry that's very large. Just about every skate shop sold in the world has it's heat transfer made from the same 3-5 facilities in China. We all use the same machine to apply the graphics, and we all use the same, or similar but acts the same, heat transfer technology. You're coming at this with the "but of course you can" mentality, when it doesn't require it. You're also ignoring the fact that other options do no grind or wear properly, which is very important.
The graphic binds to the skateboard view melting to the clear coat on the skateboard. This can be done with no glues, no coatings, just ink and heat. I have a partner in the industry that screen prints his own transfers and the only thing that ends up on that carrier sheet (which again, gets 100% thrown away, it's only there to carry the ink to the surface) is a hard surface water based screen printing ink. That's it. No funny business. That binds with the clear coat on the skateboard via the pressure and heat introduction. Peel it away, and it's forever binded to the skateboard without any additives or adhesives. Oh, and even one better for you, it's just regular water or soft-solvent based clear coats used to spray the boards, so there's not funny business there either.
Can you please point me to a No Weed HTV for hard surface that doesn't feature some sort of sheet A, Sheet B type method to create surface binding?
White Haus
Not a Newbie
Also, not to de-rail this thread, but would that be (somewhat) similar to waterslide decals? In the sense that the heat and pressure create the bond to the board, in the same way that water activates the adhesive on waterslide "decals"?
SGC
New Member
I guess, kinda!
Like mentioned above, one of the companies I work with make their own in house without the use of anything but ink and the carrier sheet. The heat and pressure create a melting reaction between the surface of the ink and the surface of the skateboards clear coat.
Some of the chinese made skateboard transfers have a micro thin screen printed, heat activated adhesive to help speed up the process. These ship after production with no protection to the printed surface, as everything is dry, smooth and handle-able before it ships. You would never know that, again, very thin layer of heat activated adhesive was on there as it feels just like, well, if you've ever touched a screen printed aluminum sign, you know how it feels.
..so since the video you sent also just shows that application to the board and not the printing. Do you load a clear sheet into the printer - printing the image in reverse and then a white overcoat? or did you load a roll of white substrate into the printer and the plot/cut the slightly oversized image out, apply the clear transfer sheet THEN apply to the skateboard blank?
SGC
New Member
Okay.
What you see in this video are 100% screen printed heat transfers. The full color ones are CMYK 4 color process (4 screens + 1 screen for white). These ones never touched a printer or a plotter. It's literally just a PET carrier sheet and screen printing ink (maybe that micro adhesive layer i spoke about earlier, depending on which factory produces - it can be done without it).
The ink cures to the surface of the carrier sheet, hard, when applied to the skateboard and the heat from the rollers, it softens, releases from the carrier sheet, and binds with the clear coat on the skateboard.
The graphic size is designed to fit all standard sized skateboards, so that leftover oval you see Is just ink that didn't bind and wasn't introduced to the heat and pressure to cause it to leave the carrier surface.
This is literally just screen printing with an extra step, as full surface (called tip to tail) printing is/was very complicated-time consuming-mistake ridden, as you has to use bent screens with very loose mesh to print over the curves and concaves of the skateboard.
When China introduced the heat transfer roller and printed heat transfer (again, just screen printing inks on a sheet of plastic), the industry as a whole started converting, as this allowed a fairly similar board feel, with much less chance of mistakes and a whole lot less labor (considering china would make them for you, all you had to do was send the files). But, this introduced 4 color process CMYK printing, aka photographic reproduction to the skateboard world, as the bent screen direct to surface method made lining up screens for CMYK fairly impossible. If those screens don't perfectly line up, remember you have 4, you have nothing but ghosting and muckiness.
Digital skateboard transfers, printed with a mixture of a UV curable digital inks and screen printing inks on the same carrier sheet, have been becoming more common over the years. These apply and react to the skateboard pretty much the same, other than the graphic itself being printed with the UV ink instead of screen printed. A mixture of a couple screen printing inks work together to protect the UV ink during the transferring process, as UV ink isn't natively heat stable.
What you see in this video are 100% screen printed heat transfers. The full color ones are CMYK 4 color process (4 screens + 1 screen for white). These ones never touched a printer or a plotter. It's literally just a PET carrier sheet and screen printing ink (maybe that micro adhesive layer i spoke about earlier, depending on which factory produces - it can be done without it).
The ink cures to the surface of the carrier sheet, hard, when applied to the skateboard and the heat from the rollers, it softens, releases from the carrier sheet, and binds with the clear coat on the skateboard.
The graphic size is designed to fit all standard sized skateboards, so that leftover oval you see Is just ink that didn't bind and wasn't introduced to the heat and pressure to cause it to leave the carrier surface.
This is literally just screen printing with an extra step, as full surface (called tip to tail) printing is/was very complicated-time consuming-mistake ridden, as you has to use bent screens with very loose mesh to print over the curves and concaves of the skateboard.
When China introduced the heat transfer roller and printed heat transfer (again, just screen printing inks on a sheet of plastic), the industry as a whole started converting, as this allowed a fairly similar board feel, with much less chance of mistakes and a whole lot less labor (considering china would make them for you, all you had to do was send the files). But, this introduced 4 color process CMYK printing, aka photographic reproduction to the skateboard world, as the bent screen direct to surface method made lining up screens for CMYK fairly impossible. If those screens don't perfectly line up, remember you have 4, you have nothing but ghosting and muckiness.
Digital skateboard transfers, printed with a mixture of a UV curable digital inks and screen printing inks on the same carrier sheet, have been becoming more common over the years. These apply and react to the skateboard pretty much the same, other than the graphic itself being printed with the UV ink instead of screen printed. A mixture of a couple screen printing inks work together to protect the UV ink during the transferring process, as UV ink isn't natively heat stable.
I know for a fact that there are people in your industry using different methods. that being said, I see nothing wrong with your method, and hope nothing I said implied that. When I was pad printing hard objects (uses screen inks) the inks had a heat activated adhesive added to them - I believe this is about the same time shirt printers had to switch to add the "flash" or heater units (the inks totally changed in the '90s)... so if you are screening onto a clear sheet for a transfer, then you are printing a heat activated adhesive with your ink. You can order sheets of the same "screen printed" white on clear backing that you can print on and then apply with heat... in theory it is the exact same product you are using, except the white ink is pre-printed as the media and the graphic is printed onto the already dry white ink. you can then contour cut and weed the print and apply exactly as you did. There are some more common rolls designed for textiles and they have more plasticizer added as well as tend to be thicker. the "Hard Surface" media is very thin - most likely exactly as thin as what you are using. (we also buy this in sheet form to run through the Oki printer for transfers to coasters, trophies, mugs, etc.)
the water-slide and temporary tattoos are printed on various water soluble substrates (usually polymers of mild organic acids) that can be dissolved from under the dried ink.
the water-slide and temporary tattoos are printed on various water soluble substrates (usually polymers of mild organic acids) that can be dissolved from under the dried ink.
SGC
New Member
To the first comment, there may be a couple, but 99% of us all use the same tech and suppliers, or a re-fabrication of the same exact thing. It's all designed specifically to mimic the same reaction, how it feels to the skateboarder when they skate the skateboard. That goes back to my point way earlier on, yeah, you can do it different ways, but unless it slides and wears correctly, the industry at large will reject it. There's nobody more fickle than a skateboarder.
The issue with the toner based stuff, is the sheet size. If I can't print 9x33", in one single piece, I can't use it. I did find a supplier that does toner based transfers in any size you want, but, unfortunately, their carrier sheet was too thin to safely work with and they wouldn't supply something thicker.
This is one of those situations where the perfect way to do something was figured out 20 years ago, and slightly perfected further over time. The roller machine you see in the video, which we also have, is a 6-15k investment on its own, and puts you right into contact with the correct suppliers, so you really have no reason to seek out alternatives, because once you have the equipment, you're in and good to roll.
I'll gladly try some techniques that I haven't already tried, I've always got time for R&D, but I'm confident when I say that there's nothing on the market, that can print in 9x33" single sheet, that can come out of a printer or plotter and right onto the skateboard, that feels and performs correctly like the industry standard method. I'm down to be proven wrong, but the I'm just one of thousands of other independent skateboard product producers that has tried it all and still buys from the source. The customer receiving what they expect to receive is far more important to the skateboard producers community than doing something cause it kinda works.
Ricoh makes a toner machine (with white ink too!) that can print 13"x27.5", so getting close, there are certainly ones who can... however I do take exception to the thought that "the perfect way to do something was figured out 20 years ago.", I believe this is the same mentality that drove the design of the Space Shuttle based on the standard sized Roman Chariot (btw, this was NOT the most efficient proportions for the boosters, but "the perfect solution" to standardizing train tracks was apparently found over 2000 years ago! The Romans standardized the chariot width, basically all western roads were made to this standard, end then so was the American railroad - so any booster that had to travel by rail had to have a maximum diameter, unfortunately much smaller than ideal.)
SGC
New Member
But when there’s a problem that doesn’t need fixed and anyone who knows how to use google can find the supplier who can print them the industry standard way cheaper than you can make them yourself, what’s the point - oh, and like I mentioned prior, you get a supplier when you buy the machine new, so you’re already in the door. They’re dirt cheap. Mud dirt. And if we’re talking the toner route, that hard substrate material isn’t cheap - and nobody natively makes it in large sheets, or in roll form - I’ve looked when I considered that route. Some of those machines can be overridden to run longer sheets, but if I can’t get the transfer media at all or without a massive commitment, what’s that do for me? The media being white and non heat confirming is also an issue. If the paper rips under the concave and pressure issue, which will happen since it’s not designed to conform around curves, you just lost a $17 blank and your media cost.
As for those semi successful tests I had with the industrial Toner transfers, though they could work if the carrier was thick enough to handle the curvature of the board and transfer process, they chipped real easy. These had a heat activated adhesive screened to them as well that was designed for wooden surfaces. But, because of the nature of the white and color portion of the graphic being toner and not a paint-like ink, they couldn’t handle even a brush of the fingernail. They looked nice, vibrant, but when it comes down to it, if they can’t handle a little ding from a finger, they don’t pass the test.
DTF - clothing DTF will adhere, but the chemistry of the adhesive powder and the inks being high stretch makes them feel gooey on the surface. You know what that means, it’s not skateable.
UV DTF could work, for center/small graphics at most, full coverage wouldn’t be fun with the curves and active adhesive and you’d be paying 5-10x the traditional transfer cost because you have to print color, white, and clear from your UV and use a lamination system to add adhesive to the prints. Doing a wet apply would be dangerous to the board, so we’ll rule that out.
Solvent / eco solvent / latex transfer doesn’t work because all the transfer techs are clothing only where you print to the surface of a vinyl or pet like material, where that printed material is then transferred to the substrate after a potential contour cut. Definitely not skateable, and if we’re going the vinyl/pet application route, we might as well do traditional vinyl since the final product would be the same visually, but the traditional vinyl would have a better hard surface adhesive on it - since clothing adhesive is a different compound all together. UV isn’t natively heat stable, which is why there is no heat transfer vinyl products on the market marketed for UV.
Printing and mounting adhesive vinyl/pet/etc from Solvent/Eco-Solvent/Latex/UV. This works for decoration, and it works well. If it’s going on a wall, and you used good material, nobody would know the difference unless they knew what to look for. There are a couple places online that sell them this way, but they all specify that they’re for decoration only, as like I’ve mentioned before, you can’t successful skate vinyl because of it not being permanently bonded, 1/1 with the surface.
They’ve added things along the way. Using holographic materials, foils, dimensional graphics underneath the main graphic and so on. China and the R&D spending skateboard industry at large keeps these things developing. Nothing stays a true trade secret, your vendor will eventually crack the code and be able to produce you the next big thing every 5 years when one comes around.
As for the companies domestically that produce their own heat transfers, they all produce a product that reacts fairly the same - it feels and wears like ink, and is transferred with a heat confirming PET release film that move the ink off the plastic and permanently bond it to the boards clear coated surface. It’s all designed to mimic what the customer expects, because at the end of the day, the customer is who matters.
Printing skateboard heat transfers in a wholesale fashion doesn’t exist in America not because it can’t be done, but because it can’t be profitable. When my process is complete, it won’t be offered to others. Not because I want to protect the process, but because I’ll be double what you’ll be charged from the China supplier. The only reason you develop in house transfer printing so so you can compete in the printer boards rush order and one-off market. Production runs would still be cheaper to outsource if the customer doesn’t pay the rush fee or order under the minimum. Self sufficiency only matters if it’s more profitable when you’re in an industry that has many places you can take your dollar.
Hopefully this clarified things a little better.
WOW! you obviously have thought this through a lot... However, if everyone just accepts the status quo then no improvement ever happens. There was a time when it was totally normal and the best practice to send your kids driving without a cell phone to call home with! imagine that time! If people had merely said things were good enough the way they were, we would not have the cell phone...
I am sure Bane thought they had the perfect system when they laminated prints inside the fiberglass resin....
and if your industry has some line to what perfection is, why do the trucks stull have dynamic instability? you only get high speed stability by overtightening the friction damper - why not simply use a dynamically stable interface with the ground? I have seen them made by literal rocket scientists in the 70's, but their time was mostly elsewhere (who do you think drove the technology for cell phones?) - a dynamically stable truck feels the same to the riders, but you can leave the dampers out and ride loose and fast.
No, your industry is not driven by perfection, you are driven by what you can make a buck for like most humans there is also a "we fear change" attitude.
good luck, you absolutely have a system that works for you. I am also positive that a more durable print can actually be made - but the reason not to make a better one is that no other company makes a better one, so you do not have to make one for competition. However, let's say that someone creates a less expensive print that can withstand 5 years of constant grinding on cement without a mark, I bet your whole industry will shift how they print seemingly overnight.
I am sure Bane thought they had the perfect system when they laminated prints inside the fiberglass resin....
and if your industry has some line to what perfection is, why do the trucks stull have dynamic instability? you only get high speed stability by overtightening the friction damper - why not simply use a dynamically stable interface with the ground? I have seen them made by literal rocket scientists in the 70's, but their time was mostly elsewhere (who do you think drove the technology for cell phones?) - a dynamically stable truck feels the same to the riders, but you can leave the dampers out and ride loose and fast.
No, your industry is not driven by perfection, you are driven by what you can make a buck for like most humans there is also a "we fear change" attitude.
good luck, you absolutely have a system that works for you. I am also positive that a more durable print can actually be made - but the reason not to make a better one is that no other company makes a better one, so you do not have to make one for competition. However, let's say that someone creates a less expensive print that can withstand 5 years of constant grinding on cement without a mark, I bet your whole industry will shift how they print seemingly overnight.