So how do you learn to letter by hand?

[SignosaurusRex]

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I find the exact opposite true.
Those that can hand letter seem, almost to a man, to look down on those that don't/can't.

wayne k
guam usa

I think you confuse that so called "Look down on those that don't/cant" attitude with the reality that those that can, resent being told that they need to step up to the times and technology as well as let go of the "old school" ways. I know of no-one that "can", that isn't willing to go out of their way to help anyone that wants to learn the skills of any old school skill, craft, trade or whatever you want to call it. I have held class in my shop many times (free of charge and supplied lunch and refreshments) for anyone that wishes to learn regardless of whether or not they may be a competitor in some form or another. There are members of this site that have attended and will attest to that. Some go on to continue to learn...others don't. Those that do....fine! Those that don't...so what, I still respect them and what they are skilled at in the trade. I do not look down on them at all. Many of them are now good friends whom I trade with and hold in high regard. This industry is so large and encompassing of so many skills and related trades that no one man or woman can even remotely become highly skilled at even a majority of aspects. "Old School" will never die, instead, it will be and is what sets one apart from another in this age and for many, an aid in longevity as well as making the difference between making it or breaking it in business. Before you are quick to judge what the attitude of any "Old Schooly" may be, consider the fact that someday you will be among those very ranks.

 

[Pro Signs & Graphix]

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I find the exact opposite true.
Those that can hand letter seem, almost to a man, to look down on those that don't/can't.

Wayne - I think you are way off here. I have never met or spoken to a painter that was not interested in teaching anyone how to do it. Never have I seen anyone "look down" on those that do not paint. The brush people are some of the most patient and friendly that one could ever meet.

What painters DO dislike - Someone saying that "paint is dead and useless" - another false statement.

 

[Jillbeans]

What painters DO dislike - Someone saying that "paint is dead and useless" - another false statement.

Exactly.

 

[Marlene]

Elegance. Understanding. Nuance.

If you can't hand letter and have never set type, you're operating under a handicap that is close to impossible to overcome.

agree with you on that. way back in the dark ages, I did hand done letters and graphics and you do develope a way of seeing that can carry over to the computer. I find it the most useful when I am thinking in terms of flow as I can feel the why I want a letter to look literally and can output with a computer that feeling. you only get that by actually going thru the moves with you hand. hard concept to explain.

Speedball books are great as they show the brush stokes and give you a good over view on how to. once you get going, you will come up with your own style.

sjm, this is a thread about learning to hand letter, not a debate if you should or not. for those who are interested, your posts just clutter up a good info thread. and for the record, I don't consider myself one of the greats of hand lettering at all, not even a pro in anyway. I've totally embraced the computer generated letters and haven't done anything by hand in years. the thing is I can see the value and admire those who took their hand lettering to the pro stage and still use that talent today. I also take with me the value of doing things by hand.

 

[surf city]

As I look back to when I was 12, I remember there was a Guy named Mike that was a sign painter who worked for my mother in her woodworking shop and I would watch him and just be amazed. I always wanted to be able to hand letter. 35 years have flown by, family and work have always gotten in the way and I still beat myself up for NOT having taken advantage of the opportunity that was right there waiting for me to take it. I can paint cars and trucks and make signs but, have never taken the time to learn to hand letter. And that's basically it.....TIME.... that's why not as many people still hand paint signs we are a population of people that look for instant gratification so nobody wants to take the time to actually learn the signs painting craft. My hat is off to anyone that can actually hand paint a sign, it's a valuable dying craft. If I could I would be packed and out the door and headed to Arlo's to learn the craft. This was an awesome post Pat, I wish you lots of luck learnig I think it's great.

 

[OldPaint]

I don't really have a dog in this fight but I find the exact opposite true.
Those that can hand letter seem, almost to a man, to look down on those that don't/can't.

wayne k
guam usa

typical non-artist way to see the debate. WE....who can paint, ALSO CAN DRAW!!!
so it not the fact that we paint, its the people in this trade who cant DRAW A STICK FIGURE.........that we tend to pick on.
ANNNNNDDDD... the worst thing is those who cant draw, ARE PROUD, they dont need to waste their time LEARNING HOW!!!!!!!!!
sota like someone sitting in the pilots seat of the aircraft your boarding, AND THEY HAVE NEVER TAKEN A FLYING LESSON)))))))) but they know how to work a computer)))))))

 

[GAC05]

I think you confuse that so called "Look down on those that don't/cant" attitude with the reality that those that can, resent being told that they need to step up to the times and technology as well as let go of the "old school" ways. I know of no-one that "can", that isn't willing to go out of their way to help anyone that wants to learn the skills of any old school skill, craft, trade or whatever you want to call it. I have held class in my shop many times (free of charge and supplied lunch and refreshments) for anyone that wishes to learn regardless of whether or not they may be a competitor in some form or another. There are members of this site that have attended and will attest to that. Some go on to continue to learn...others don't. Those that do....fine! Those that don't...so what, I still respect them and what they are skilled at in the trade. I do not look down on them at all. Many of them are now good friends whom I trade with and hold in high regard. This industry is so large and encompassing of so many skills and related trades that no one man or woman can even remotely become highly skilled at even a majority of aspects. "Old School" will never die, instead, it will be and is what sets one apart from another in this age and for many, an aid in longevity as well as making the difference between making it or breaking it in business. Before you are quick to judge what the attitude of any "Old Schooly" may be, consider the fact that someday you will be among those very ranks.

My reply was deliberately overly broad as a response to what I thought was a broad condemnation of those who don't/can't paint in the post above mine.
I do think that there is a grain in truth to what I posted, at least from my vantage point:
Living on a small island the only contact I have with real sign people is here on this forum.
My views pretty much have to be based on what is posted here by those who choose to make their views known.
Objectively look back at the bulk of the posts on subjects that center around this "paint -vs- the rest of the world" theme and then tell me what you take away.
I have been exposed to the beauty of paint from my father (who is still kicking). One of the many things he did really well was custom car paint.
No printed wrap or vinyl job will ever match the depth or colors he could pull out of a spray gun.
I have a great deal of respect (and envy) for those that have an artistic skill set that I know I will never have.
At the same time I can take pride in what I do, know that I am good at what I am doing and offer a good value to the people who choose to use my services.
Everyone brings something to the table and I'd like to think that I don't look down on any of it.
As for longevity, I am no spring chicken and have been at this business, except for some military time, since 1973.

Very good thread.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[sjm]

Wow... I've been gone a few hours with every intent of coming back and schooling you sj, but i see numerous of my friends have done an adequate job. I still doubt you'll ever get it though from that fog of negativity you operate within. What hand lettering has in spades over digital is the satisfaction of having produced something with hand to eye coordination that has an innate appeal to fellow human beings. And like bob says "elegance/nuance". Still, I'm sure these are concepts that are beyond your limited grasp.

You continue to argue craftsmanship, I argue survival. Though I presume if all the paint suppliers thought like you they would not embrace new markets?

They're wrong (as in the paint suppliers) because they want to survive. I am fascinated by your thinking.

 

[Arlo Kalon 2.0]

You continue to argue craftsmanship, I argue survival. Though I presume if all the paint suppliers thought like you they would not embrace new markets?

They're wrong (as in the paint suppliers) because they want to survive. I am fascinated by your thinking.

I too am fascinated with your thinking - truly. It is obvious English is your first language, though your comprehension of the written word is sorely lacking. This thread is about/was started by someone wanting some direction on how to get started hand lettering - period, end of thought. I have no idea what this left turn is you took with regard to the market strategy of paint manufacturers. What does that possibly contribute to this thread? Really, think about it. I'd advise you to go back and re-read this thread from the beginning. However, I want you to purposely not read every reply you contributed to it.

There now, didn't that flow better and make more sense? I know it will for me when I put you on my ignore list and am able to skip your drivel.

 

[sjm]

I too am fascinated with your thinking - truly. It is obvious English is your first language, though your comprehension of the written word is sorely lacking. This thread is about/was started by someone wanting some direction on how to get started hand lettering - period, end of thought. I have no idea what this left turn is you took with regard to the market strategy of paint manufacturers. What does that possibly contribute to this thread? Really, think about it. I'd advise you to go back and re-read this thread from the beginning. However, I want you to purposely not read every reply you contributed to it.

There now, didn't that flow better and make more sense? I know it will for me when I put you on my ignore list and am able to skip your drivel.

Mate, do as you wish but I think spirited debate moves things forward. It answers how and why ... not what happened?

 

[Circleville Signs]

Mate, do as you wish but I think spirited debate moves things forward. It answers how and why ... not what happened?

That's the POINT you freakin' idiot. This thread wasn't ABOUT A DEBATE. There was NOTHING to debate. Pat, and then I, wanted info on learning to hand paint.

I'm with Arlo - you're going on my ignore list. Douche.

 

[Gino]

Although sjm might add ingredients for debate…. he/she has a tendency to sour the batter. No one can control how many turns a thread can make or what hi-jacking will affect the outcome of a thread, but for us to argue with such behavior is what I find puzzling at the moment. He/she’s simply not worth it. Like a little kid that can’t get his way…. just pamper them and they’ll eventually stop crying so loud. Doncha just love spoiled little brats ??

He/she is obviously just trying to get anyone into an argument. Probably gets no respect at home and needs to turn to the internet for his/her jollies. He/she’s starting to show signs of some of the past banned people from here and acting in the same manor they did and were booted off. It’s probably someone that has figured out how to come back in under the radar.

Why or how some person gets their rocks off turning every statement around and inside out is beyond me, when it doesn’t serve any purpose. Just play the same game back with sjm and he’ll probably go back to whatever it is he/she does best………

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

1st get a Speedball book any year will work, in there you will see the how to's of strokes
though it shows a flat pen it also works with brush, also shown is casual, block, thick & thin, roman serif, and script fonts to practice with normaly thick & thin is easy because you can make alot of errors and still correct, so is casual for one stroking a letter and block for learning hand and eye coordination in lettering all fonts.

buy a #8 lettering quill # 5 & 3 are also good to practice smaller #8 will give you a easy 3 -4 inch letter
thinners, brush oil are a must, cleaner you get your brush longer it will last (many years)
charcoal sticks work well to draw with or pencil if no charcoal sticks
draw letters alot of them complete and then letter with brush
dip brush in paint then in a can of thinner pallet on a card stock, this is where you learn how thick or thin
when lettering if it runs to thin ..if the brush drags it's to thick

read about letter shapes in the speedball book it will tell you the ways & means

 

[SignManiac]

Pretty much what I was too lazy to type out Gino...

 

[Custom Bob]

I've been hand lettering, pinstriping and airbrushing for over 37 years now.
The first thing one has to realize is that to be able to hand letter and stripe is that it helps a ton if your born with the gift to be able to do it.
I've met many people that wanted to hand letter or stripe and just couldn't do it no matter how hard they tried and practiced.
It's a dying art and I love reading about how many would love to learn the trade.
Practice, practice. practice!
Use glass to practice on. Besides that you can wipe it off easy with thinner and a razor blade and start again, it's a little slicker than painted surfaces and makes you concentrate a little more.
In this day and age of Fast Food and I have to have it Now attitudes, Modern Technology is killing the Old School art. The only thing I see is kids with computers buying software and calling themselves sign artists. Most of them don't know what One Shot is.
Speaking of One Shot. Since they took the lead out and reformulated the paint it's garbage to work with. I add hardner and still can't get longevity out of it like years ago.
There's still a sign in my area that I lettered around 25 years ago with the "old" One Shot and it's still in good shape.
If anyone gives hand painting or striping a try, lets see your efforts and post some pictures.

 

[OldPaint]

bob, ive had some good results with AUTOMOTIVE ACRYLIC ENAMEL. really. i use a slow reducer with it, so i have a little time to move the paint.if you can find it DUPOUNT used to make a LACQUER RETARDER........and it will slow down the drying.
also joey madden a great pinstriper has been using HOK paint for stripes for years.

 

[rm25x]

I thought these were a good watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQzTQS5FeiQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NqLghEuaQQ&feature=fvw

And the best channel I have found on youtube for hand lettering:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ptardifinc

Makes you really have a new respect for sign painters.

 

[Joe Diaz]

... Well sort of. Actually it's my attempt at getting this thread back on topic.

Pat and Gary..... and who ever else wants to have some fun painting. You guys should come to Danville, IL this summer for the Walldog meet. It's not quite the same as a panel jam, but some of the same folks that regularly attend old letterhead meets will be there, and they will be more than happy to pass on some knowledge. And while you are picking their brain you can grab a brush and help us paint these walls.

I would recommend stopping by Mike Meyer's wall. He will probably forget more about hand lettering then I will ever learn. Plus the man is hilarious.

I've never met Mark Fair, but he will be there too, and I have always admired his work. I'm sure he has a "fair" share of knowledgeable nuggets for anyone who is willing to listen. I'm excited to meet him.

And of course Grampa Dan Sawatsky will be there. He is probably giving to a fault. If you don't learn anything from Grandpa Dan, you are doing something wrong.

Well you get the idea. The point is... some great folks will be there and I could spend hours naming names but you will have to show up to truly see what I mean.

 

[round man]

Ya know I've been in this business since 1968 and it is beyond my comprehension why anyone would want to spend their entire career clueless about the knowledge about our trade that is only available in books about hand lettering,and sign painting,...Design principles, proper letter spacing,letter forms, and layout rules that have never changed,..I can remember the jokes we'd make about the designs we got from printers and design firms with "trained professionals" that looked great on paper but never seemed to work out on the side of the street or on the storefront. there is a huge difference in sign design and print design, the print design being the only thing taught in so called graphic design schools,with only a passing notice given to signage,I know i went to art school many years ago and still had to apprentice my trade after I completed art school,....mind you there might not be alot of demand for the average sign painter but there is a demand and the supply is getting less and less so the cost is rising,....if you can hand letter and you don't understand this you are your own worst enemy.

why one would want to remain clueless about the knowledge needed for their trade that has been passed down for generations with the attitude that there is a button somewhere they can push that will take it's place is just a sad statement for those who are stupid enough to believe this line of bs,...in the days before computers we called the guys who didn't know these rules, hacks,...but come to think of it, we still do,.... hehehehehehehe,...some things don't seem to change with technology

 

[Rodi]

Ya know I've been in this business since 1968 and it is beyond my comprehension why anyone would want to spend their entire career clueless about the knowledge about our trade that is only available in books about hand lettering,and sign painting,...Design principles, proper letter spacing,letter forms, and layout rules that have never changed,..I can remember the jokes we'd make about the designs we got from printers and design firms with "trained professionals" that looked great on paper but never seemed to work out on the side of the street or on the storefront. there is a huge difference in sign design and print design, the print design being the only thing taught in so called graphic design schools,with only a passing notice given to signage,I know i went to art school many years ago and still had to apprentice my trade after I completed art school,....mind you there might not be alot of demand for the average sign painter but there is a demand and the supply is getting less and less so the cost is rising,....if you can hand letter and you don't understand this you are your own worst enemy.

why one would want to remain clueless about the knowledge needed for their trade that has been passed down for generations with the attitude that there is a button somewhere they can push that will take it's place is just a sad statement for those who are stupid enough to believe this line of bs,...in the days before computers we called the guys who didn't know these rules, hacks,...but come to think of it, we still do,.... hehehehehehehe,...some things don't seem to change with technology

A lot of good in this, but actually, I think design schools do not teach good technique for even proper typesetting. We have the software to make type be as good as ever, yet the eye of the person setting the type is lazier than ever. Ever see nice hi end print jobs where there are no hyphens, yet there are staggering space gaps to avoid this? It is stupid!

SJM, surely you can appreciate the fact that hand lettering is a good way to enhance ones style, right? No computer can add touches that handwork does, period. I think most sign painters are on with technology, and they do see that the market has dropped the price for formerly profitable items (how much does one get for a set of truck doors these days?). And that blending computers, vinyl, inkjet add value to their arsenal to meet both their artistic vision and the marketplace.

 

[Deaton Design]

Pat, here are two books you should get. Both have alot of information about how to handle a brush, strokes, and all kinds of tips that make it much easier. I bought both when I first started. They are older books, but still have alot of useful info in them. One is by Ralph Gregory and the other by Steve Prohaska.
http://www.amazon.com/Sign-Painting-Techniques-Beginner-Professional/dp/0911380299
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-list...rect=true&qid=1276869432&sr=1-1&condition=all