Something that's been on my mind (design related)

[GoodPeopleFlags]

I've recently read some threads that got me thinking about something. Those of us who are designers are paid by other people who don't know how to design, or else they wouldn't be paying us to do it for them. Right? Great! But what gets me is that we then show the customer our work and leave it up to them to tell us if we've done our job right. By that, I mean we give them the final approval, which, in some cases, they make so many changes that's is slaughtered. It worries me sometimes that they're going to tell people I did that! When I get my car worked on, the mechanic doesn't ask me if there's anything else they need to do to my car or ask me if he did everything right. That's why I pay him!

I guess the reason I'm writing this is to a) vent and b) ask how other designers handle this. I would like to see the customers trust our opinions and work the same way other industries are trusted. When we show a customer a proof and they want hideous changes, how can we tell them "No, that's ugly. I rather break my finger than use it to hit the print button for that".

Thanks for reading.

 

[Steve C.]

When I make a really good steak, seasoned and cooked to perfection... It really
ticks me off when my kids smother it with catchup or sauce, because that's
how they like it.

 

[signswi]

Learning how to talk to your clients about design is a bigger challenge than doing good design (which is hard enough with sign clients). Talk through your reasoning and don't be afraid to defend your choices.

This is where it pays off to have gone through a university design program that uses socratic critiques.

 

[Gino]

I think the first question one has to ask themselves.......

Is what I designed really good.... or am I the only one that thinks so ??


I believe there are many good designers out there..... and on the other hand.... there are f-a-r more that are terrible, but just have a high opinionated stink about their own wares.

Just because you say something does not make it true. I'm not a good designer, but I can layout fairly well. Designing logos doesn't always come easy to me, but I can whip up a rather tasty layout in just minutes.

If the person gives me full control, I can generally give them what they want and still be at least 90% satisfied. If it doesn't meet my standards, I tell them and we keep working at it. Sometimes, the customer has a good idea that I didn't even think of...... and after incorporating it.... it works in real good.

There have been a few that have argued about what they wanted vs. what I recommended and in the long-run, they usually see it my way. I'm not a firm believer in.... 'the customer's always right' syndrome. I will tell them to reconsider what they want and take a day or two and look around and see if I'm right or not. Almost everyone will come back and say... I see now what you're saying. When someone is head strong, I will try to change or tweak things a little towards what they want, but I won't give into lousy design or layout.

 

[ForgeInc]

Being a designer for the past however many years, I have wrestled with this a lot. More so in my younger years when I was way more passionate and cared more than I do now. I still care, and sometimes I'll fight for a design I know is better. A year or so ago, when designing a logo for a client who was managing it as a kind of favor for another client, I actually held my ground and would not do what they suggested. I told my client, "if that is what they want, I'll give you my files and they can adjust the logo however they see fit, but I won't make those changes."

He said he understood, and I was basically done at that point. He actually really appreciated my passion and didn't hold it against me at all, which I thought he might. In this instance he was just a messenger and doing it more as a favor than anything but it all worked out and I've done many more great projects for him since.

Don't get me wrong, i still care and I haven't done that many times. When clients suggest stuff I know won't work I will try my best to explain to them why my options might be better, usually trying to relate to other scenarios or other brands they might relate to better.

But I've been doing this so long sometimes I just give up, realize that I still do this for a job...and you can't always win people over to good ideas. In the end all that really matters is a happy client and myself getting paid. If that happens, any job is successful and if I was passionate enough to fight for something that strongly and didn't win, it usually goes in the portfolio.

My $.02.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I guess the reason I'm writing this is to a) vent and b) ask how other designers handle this.

Good vent, always needed occasionally ... that being said ...

The way I handle it is be blunt. "If you want that ... in my professional oppinion ... that would look bad." If they still want that, just tell them no problem, but also remind them that they have to trust you to some degree to create something that looks good to everyone else including them ... so just try to stress that they are paying you for your professional oppinion, experience, training and skills.

 

[CES020]

This isn't directed at you, by any means, but in my limited life view, I see so many people saying that are designers that you could choke a mule with them. I personally believe some people have a God given talent and those people are special and rare. Then, you have people that spend a ton of money going to school to be graphic designers, all of which think they are God's gift to design, but most all of them have a lot to learn.

Not too long ago I put out an ad for someone with graphic design experience and got over 100 resumes. If 99% of those people can call themselves graphic designers, than so can I. The crap they do and call "amazing" is beyond me. My guess is they are all living in the art world where there is "no such thing" as being wrong, as it's all "art".

Out of the 130 resumes I got, I'd say less than 5 of them were from people that I say "got it". They were very commercial and they really seemed to understand it.

So for the average Joe to be able to give that level of trust over to someone to say "Just do it", I'd think they'd have to have some amazing comfort level with your portfolio.

It's also a little different than having your car worked on. You take your car to a mechanic when it's got a problem, and you know at the end of the day, they will replace parts and it'll be good to go. With a design, you're messing with someone's imagination. There are no "parts" to replace. You're asking me to trust what's in your mind, that I can't see, and you want a premium price for it. That's a lot to ask from someone.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I feel ya. I guess the way I look at it is like this, I don't "leave it up to the customer to tell me it's right" I leave it up to them to pay me to do the job. I naturally assume that every first time customer that walks in the door or calls, is hiring me for my set of skills and expertise. So I will try my hardest to steer their image in direction I think is best FOR them.

For most it works out great, for a smaller percentage, at some point, I come to the realization that they haven't hired me for my expertise but to act as a middle man between their mind and my computer or pencil or brush. I make no guarantee for the success of that design and in most cases it won't end up in my portfolio. In other words: I'll polish that turd to the best of my abilities, but at the end of the day, it's still a turd.

When their money is involved, I can only fight for their design to a certain point, and I can dazzle them with terminology like the best of them. But sometimes crawling inside the head of a person like that and creating exactly what they want, however wrong it is, can be difficult, but it sure beats fighting an unwinnable battle.

All you can do is try your best, try to improve and try to not let those folks get to you. If it makes you feel better, I think it's safe to say every designer has the same problems. I had a week and a half of nothing but customers like that not to long ago. It was almost comical. When I finally got one "right", I felt like doing a victory dance around the office. (I mean I DID do a victory dance around the office):Big Laugh

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

Thanks for your input, guys. I feel better knowing I'm not the only one who struggles with this. I guess I'm still in the "passionate" stage and I hope I stay that way for a long time, even with the frustrations that come along with that.

 

[signswi]

Side projects that you have complete creative control over helps to keep your passion going. I also try to always be working in several different mediums at all times to keep fresh and I have a motto that a day in which I didn't learn anything is a wasted day. Podcasts are great for that, can be learning while working.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Side projects that you have complete creative control over helps to keep your passion going.

absolutely! I'll drink to that!

 

[Colin]

Those of us who are designers are paid by other people who don't know how to design, or else they wouldn't be paying us to do it for them. Right? Great! But what gets me is that we then show the customer our work and leave it up to them to tell us if we've done our job right. By that, I mean we give them the final approval, which, in some cases, they make so many changes that's is slaughtered. It worries me sometimes that they're going to tell people I did that! When I get my car worked on, the mechanic doesn't ask me if there's anything else they need to do to my car or ask me if he did everything right. That's why I pay him!

I've had two customers just in the last week (both female) who have taken me down a long & winding road of font choices, going from what they described that they wanted in the first place (and my subsequent good design) to absolute rubbish.

In the last 18 years, this would have eaten me up; and while it was very frustrating, I'm learning to let it go a bit, because I know I can't convince some people, and often in the attempt to suggest that their choices aren't appropriate, they get all "offended". Gah!

Actually I can think of a third customer a couple weeks ago (also female) who showed me the logo that she and a "graphic designer friend" were working on. It was so bad I was speechless. I was like a deer in the headlights. I asked if she was aware that I did logo design, and she said: "Ya, but this is free!".......... not realizing that it wasn't free at all. That logo is going to cost her thou$ands in lost business - perhaps even be the business' demise.

 

[James Burke]

and she said: "Ya, but this is free.

Obviously, we can't help stupid. They have to learn it for themselves.


JB

 

[James Burke]

:Oops: extra post....


JB

 

[Sign-Man Signs]

Good vent, always needed occasionally ... that being said ...

The way I handle it is be blunt. "If you want that ... in my professional oppinion ... that would look bad." If they still want that, just tell them no problem, but also remind them that they have to trust you to some degree to create something that looks good to everyone else including them ... so just try to stress that they are paying you for your professional oppinion, experience, training and skills.

I totally agree. If you explain to the client what is good vs bad most will agree with you. The pay off is after the project is done and they come back and thank you for doing your way. Only problem I have is that I haven't made my perfect design yet. Still waiting.....

 

[Marlene]

I totally agree. If you explain to the client what is good vs bad most will agree with you. The pay off is after the project is done and they come back and thank you for doing your way.

so true.

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

I realize that in design, there is a matter of personal preference involved. Like the ketchup on a steak reference. Or for another example, the clothing choices worn by folks on "peopleofwalmart.com". Ha! But in design, there *ARE* rules - it's not just a free-for-all to throw together everything you like all in one place.

There's a difference between a design I don't like and bad design. There are plenty of logos and layouts that I don't personally like but they adhere to the rules and that's fine; it's just my personal taste. When I customer wants a bad design, I can tell them *why* it's bad, not just because I don't like it. And when they still want to go with their idea, it's frustrating because I know they're hurting their business and because I take pride in my work and I'm afraid they'll tell people I made their ugly crap.

I've been in this biz for 20 years, I'm going to school for graphic design (finally!) and I've earned the right to say what's good or bad. The frustrating part is that at the end of a project, someone who knows nothing about design gets to tell me if I've done my job well. I don't get offended when they don't like my designs! I got over that a loooong time ago. It's just frustrating. But you guys are giving me some good ideas on how to handle that. Thanks!

 

[Joe Diaz]

A lot of sign artists I have talked to seem to have a tipping point as to how bad they will actually let a design become before they tell the customer: "I am not interested in doing this work". But what you have to realize is the way we are setup, we always get money up front, so It's difficult to do a bunch of work, have it totally picked apart until it is an empty husk of a design, then at that point say: " you know I realize you have paid us half to work on this job but this isn't working out." Then you have to deal with the drama of keeping the money and trying to explain to the furious customer as to why, OR giving them their money back and wasting all that time and still dealing with the drama of turning them down.

This is why at a certain point I will cave, because the alternatives are worst and fighting for a design can become a long drawn out affair that will cost us money. I really do wish I could fight till I got my way on every job, because my heart tells me that is what I should do, but my wallet (and my family's wallet) says just get the job done. And if you keep in mind that the next job and the majority of the jobs after that will most likely NOT go down that way, it makes it a little easier to move on. (It also helps to vent on forums like this.)

Don't get me wrong, most of the time I can explain myself out of doing a bad job. If you know how to explain why things should be done a certain way, most jobs will go your way. Because you are right, there are rules of design that in most cases should be followed. But we all know there are people out there that won't listen to reason and are hell-bent on getting their way.

What I can't stand are those people that clearly haven't hired me for my expertise but to act as their personal design software operator. Then after I do what they want, they ask me what I think. If they don't listen to me in the first place, I will only answer that question and state how I feel a total of 2 times. After that I will simply respond "I'm okay with it, if you are okay with it".

It is almost like they expect I will catch on to their creative genius if we were to just change that font to papyrus and spend a few more minutes testing out color combinations that match the pillows on their couch at home. If a person won't take my advice, they shouldn't ask for it.

 

[MikesSigns]

I will put my design next to the one I think they wanted or the one they showed me. Seldom do they pick theirs. Colors, readability, size, and general design layout will always win out. Be patient, listen, and learn to read the customers need. Just keep it simple for those who want simple. If they are looking for more creativity...they will let you know. REMEMBER EVERYONE IS A DESIGNER....SOME BETTER THEN OTHERS..... I enjoy having them sit in with me during design phase. Just don't give out too many options, for it will take longer to achieve the final decision. Sometimes two heads are better then one...just don't let them grab your pencil. LOL
Remember to thank the customer who gives you total design control and appreciates your work. It is their gratitude and referrals that will keep your business and portfolio looking great.