Stay CS6? Or Upgrade to CC? What am I gaining?

[WildWestDesigns]

The least thing a rival vendor can do is provide import accuracy between features that are duplicated between the two applications.

I think though, that how features are implemented between the 2 applications would also play a part. If features that may be comparable are coded differently when importing in the competitors format may cause breakage.

The difficult thing with ditching Illustrator is the application has so many unique features that users often bake into their artwork without making any attempt to expand or flatten.

That is for sure a pickle. Part of the process of saving into other formats includes that as some things are accepted into those formats. I don't see that issue every going away, it may actually only be getting worse due to the user base out there. I dunno.

Inkscape is the only application you mentioned that fits into mainstream sign making purposes -which mostly calls for 2D vector graphics work.

GIMP and Krita I think would also be applicable. Blender for CNC work. I do have some plugins that are for CNC work. With GP in Blender, that could also be utilized for 2D work. I mainly use it for 2D frame by frame animation and game sprite work, but it can be used in other ways. Their used to be a way to export SVGs as well from Blender, I think they are trying to reintegrate that back into it.

Inkscape is the only one in that list which directly compares to Adobe Illustrator. I personally don't like its user interface and limitations; I can get things done a whole lot faster in CorelDRAW and Adobe Illustrator. The only advantage I see in Inkscape is that it's available for free.

See, you miss the best part of Inkscape and the others. Granular control. You can change the UI on all of them. Don't have to recompile or anything like that. I agree, I don't care for the default look of Inkscape. Layout doesn't bother me, but icons (I'm not much of an adwaita person) I do have my issues.

You don't even have to do it yourself if you don't want to, can't or whatever the reason may be. A lot of people have done at least the basics for you to where it's just drag and drop of files in respective directories.

Are you taking these programs "as is"? That tends to be the thought process of most people, it's "as is", so if it sucks "as is", they drop it. Where these programs come alive is with scripting (mainly python, which is a fairly user friendly language, I'm more of a JS person myself) and with extensions/plugins/addons.

If you are using say vanilla Inkscape, I would never recommend it for print work. The mere fact of it's "master file" precludes that as an option (as it would any open source vector project, say for instance Karbon). One would need to either use it in conjunction with Scribus (how I do it) or use a plugin, there is one, I mentioned it to Johnny in another thread, can't think of it now, way past my bedtime. Mind isn't sharp at this time.

Photoshop figures in to a lot of design for large format printing, as well as design for LED signs. The rival pixel-based image editors just don't compare well to Photoshop. I prefer the features and interface of Photoshop.

GIMP would be the closest here. I don't like this interface at all. There are themes out that for GIMP to get it to look like Ps as well. You have to script GIMP, again, mainly python, to get it more usable. You can get quite a bit more work down this way. Can also get all of this programs scripted to where they run via CLI (you can invoke the script via GUI, it just opens up a terminal automatically and runs the script) less drag on resources, so can actually run multiple processes since it's not also calling much graphic demand as well.

Some people are afraid of CLI (I grew up during the DOS days, so I wasn't totally a stranger when I get to using it more now), but not matter what platform you are on, it is the most efficient and powerful means of doing something. You can write and invoke the script via GUI though, the CLI portion is down automatically. Don't have to do it, that's just another option.

Now, some people also consider Krita an alternative to Ps, I do not. It is closer to Corel Painter then Ps. Some overlap, but definitely not enough, for me, to consider it an alternative to Ps. I do know of one user on here that uses Painter, so even in that regard, Krita may not be all that out of place. I dunno.


I do keep on mentioning scripting and plugins etc, there are a lot of those already done (may not have one that you need out there, that's always possible), but when I say you, it is the generic you. Don't have to do this yourself if you can't, not inclined etc, but would have to go looking to see if they exist.

The tight integration Photoshop has with Illustrator and InDesign isn't matched by any other software vendor. Freehand was the only drawing program that came close to matching Illustrator in terms of integration with Photoshop.

It's getting better between GIMP(or Krita depending on who you talk to), Inkscape and Scribus. Not nearly as good as Adobe, but considering it's 3 separate projects and don't nearly have the history as Adobe, I can understand that to a point. But I do miss that smooth of an integration.

That's your own case. I was talking about most users in general who balk at using Adobe CC. Software cost is the #1 factor. These folks don't see the value Adobe is offering for $54 per month. They're actually delivering significantly more than what was bundled in the Master Collection of the previous Creative Suite model. That cost around $2000 to buy and $600 per year to update, yet it was still missing a few things and didn't have squat for fonts. The Adobe Fonts thing is worth a bunch just on its own. So I see the CC thing as an investment to help our company make more money.

Hard to tell how they would have handled it if they had kept CS. I'm sure that portion (Adobe Fonts), would be a subscription addon.

The one thing that I would be concerned with is that they could remove or adjust any one of those features down the line. I am not saying that they will for those specific features, but that's a possibility. Things can change at a moment's notice and users don't have quite the reaction time that they once had with major releases, especially with the x-1 update schema. A little bit of time, but not quite as much.

I may place to much of a high value for something that may not happen, but that is just what I would be concerned with.

Now, does that happen in the open source world, yes it does, but the biggest difference is if it is something that a lot of people use/desire/what have you, typically the community would put it back in. The most current example of this that I could think of is BGE. Deprecated and removed officially from 2.8, but a project (UPBGE) has brought it back and working on getting it in 2.8 and modernizing the original code base. There is no possibility of that happening with anything in the closed source world. That is a huge advantage. At least in my mind. Not everything happens that way, but that potential is always there.

That still ends up being another knock against Inkscape in a comparison to Adobe Illustrator. As far as I can tell Illustrator is still the only vector drawing app that provides full support for OpenType Variable fonts.

Remember that's officially. I haven't looked into it too much, but there could very well be a plugin that supports it fully or is certainly adding to it beyond what officially Inkscape would do.

 

[Bobby H]

I think though, that how features are implemented between the 2 applications would also play a part. If features that may be comparable are coded differently when importing in the competitors format may cause breakage.

I would expect similar features in two rival vector drawing programs to be coded differently, given they come from two different companies and two different development teams. It's the developer's job to create import/export filters that can translate between their own applications and those of rivals and do so accurately. A software giant like Adobe probably doesn't have to try all that hard accommodating files from other apps (one reason why I have to send anything made in CorelDRAW to Illustrator in AI format). But upstart rivals wanting to win customers from Adobe must do everything they can to sweeten the deal.

That is for sure a pickle. Part of the process of saving into other formats includes that as some things are accepted into those formats. I don't see that issue every going away, it may actually only be getting worse due to the user base out there. I dunno.

It's one thing for an experienced user who knows all the pitfalls to expand, flatten and finalize as much of his artwork as possible -all to make it easier to export to other formats, save down to previous versions or make the artwork more friendly to routing tables and vinyl cutters. I do that all the time with both CorelDRAW and Illustrator-based artwork. Some of those habits come from many years of experience, learning various lessons along the way.

Unfortunately many other users don't have the same habits -especially people who don't work in the sign industry. So many can't even bother to do something as basic as convert editable fonts to outlines. Not everyone has the same collection of fonts or even the same version of the same fonts (Arial from Windows XP is far more primitive than Arial bundled in Win10). Some clients get pretty annoyed if you tell them they need to fix something with their artwork and re-send it. Something like fonts is a fairly easy fix. But if they've built their artwork, branding, etc using a bunch of Illustrator-dependent effects and they hand AI or PDF files off to someone armed with only CorelDRAW or maybe only even Inkscape that user is going to be stuck. That user will either blow lots of hours trying to re-build the artwork or he'll ask the client to make changes to their arwtork in order for him to be able to use it. That latter choice often doesn't go over so well.

GIMP and Krita I think would also be applicable. Blender for CNC work. I do have some plugins that are for CNC work. With GP in Blender, that could also be utilized for 2D work. I mainly use it for 2D frame by frame animation and game sprite work, but it can be used in other ways. Their used to be a way to export SVGs as well from Blender, I think they are trying to reintegrate that back into it.

None of the stuff we send to routing tables involves 3D applications. It's all 2D sources. Any depth effects applied are done within EnRoute. GIMP and Krita are pixel-based image editors, not rivals to a vector drawing app like Illustrator.

Inkscape is the only one in that list which directly compares to Adobe Illustrator. I personally don't like its user interface and limitations; I can get things done a whole lot faster in CorelDRAW and Adobe Illustrator. The only advantage I see in Inkscape is that it's available for free.

See, you miss the best part of Inkscape and the others. Granular control. You can change the UI on all of them. Don't have to recompile or anything like that. I agree, I don't care for the default look of Inkscape. Layout doesn't bother me, but icons (I'm not much of an adwaita person) I do have my issues.

I don't really see much in Inkscape's preferences regarding user interface options that make it any better than the options available in CorelDRAW or Adobe Illustrator. As "granular" as you say Inkscape is, the current version (.092) doesn't provide enough keyboard shortcut options for me to do something like imitate the path drawing behavior of Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop. Using combinations of the Ctrl, Alt, Shift and Spacebar keys I can draw Bezier paths and move anchor point locations and adjust anchor point direction handles while drawing the path AND I can zoom in/out and hand pan the view while digitizing the path. CorelDRAW can't quite do that either, regardless of how one customizes the shortcuts. Freehand is the only other drawing app I've seem that duplicated those shortcuts. That's a pretty big deal to me.

Are you taking these programs "as is"? That tends to be the thought process of most people, it's "as is", so if it sucks "as is", they drop it. Where these programs come alive is with scripting (mainly python, which is a fairly user friendly language, I'm more of a JS person myself) and with extensions/plugins/addons.

No, I don't use Adobe Illustrator or CorelDRAW as is when initially installed. Both applications do offer a variety of different stock workspaces, which can be customized further. I don't really have to do too much to a stock CorelDRAW installation other than add a couple custom toolbars with functions I like. I do a bit of customizing to Illustrator's "Essentials Classic" workspace. I change a few items in the preferences of both applications.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

None of the stuff we send to routing tables involves 3D applications. It's all 2D sources.

You do realize that there are vector shapes in Blender, yes? Most people think of it only in terms of 3D, but it is fairly robust outside of that.

Hell, I even use it for quicky video edits, even the VSE module as it is is robust enough for that (I wish it would be able to yoke more then 1 core and I do think that is on the roadmap for improvement). It is no way competes with Premier, I'm not saying that, but how many people on here would think to use it as a video editor, even if just for simple stuff?

Even with that 1 core limitation for video editing in Blender, I still prefer it over Kdenlive (which is the one that most people recommend right off the bat).

GIMP and Krita are pixel-based image editors, not rivals to a vector drawing app like Illustrator.

You do realize that I was talking about them in reference to Ps (and Painter with regard to Krita) don't you? NOT Ai.

Just a refresher, you said this:

The rival pixel-based image editors just don't compare well to Photoshop. I prefer the features and interface of Photoshop.

And I said this:

GIMP would be the closest here. I don't like this interface at all. There are themes out that for GIMP to get it to look like Ps as well....



Now, some people also consider Krita an alternative to Ps, I do not. It is closer to Corel Painter then Ps. Some overlap, but definitely not enough, for me, to consider it an alternative to Ps.

I don't really see much in Inkscape's preferences regarding user interface options that make it any better than the options available in CorelDRAW or Adobe Illustrator. As "granular" as you say Inkscape is, the current version (.092) doesn't provide enough keyboard shortcut options for me to do something like imitate the path drawing behavior of Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop.

I didn't say that they were in the preferences. Remember, to change the user interface, add in HiDPI support (which is now officially only coming to Inkscape 1.0, but has been supported by the community since .48) one has to drag and drop (and replace) files. Not going to be found in preferences. Not all that difficult to do, those that have created those files have provided quite robust documentation about what files to swap out, backup and/or replace. And not something new that the users have to do here with other more mainstream programs as well when backing up preferences from one install to the next so not have to redo the whole setup again. That's nothing but drag, drop and replace.

No, I don't use Adobe Illustrator or CorelDRAW as is when initially installed. Both applications do offer a variety of different stock workspaces, which can be customized further. I don't really have to do too much to a stock CorelDRAW installation other than add a couple custom toolbars with functions I like. I do a bit of customizing to Illustrator's "Essentials Classic" workspace. I change a few items in the preferences of both applications.

Those are options that are provided "as is" to users. I'm not talking about tweaking things that the companies allow you to tweak. I'm talking about tweaking beyond that. I go back to HiDPI support in Inkscape. If Adobe, Corel doesn't have HiDPI support (I'm not saying that's the case now, just as an example), end users are out of luck, have to wait on Adobe/Corel to implement that for them. No HiDPI support in Inkscape, end users implement that ability and share that ability with others that may not have been able to do that on their own until it's officially integrated into Inkscape (if ever, in this case it is going to be).

That's the type of not using "as is".

Although I will say this, the custom toolbox/toolbar, that's probably the one feature that I do miss from not continuing beyond CS6. Custom Workspaces only goes so far.

 

[Bobby H]

You do realize that there are vector shapes in Blender, yes? Most people think of it only in terms of 3D, but it is fairly robust outside of that.

You do realize I can make 2D shapes to send to a routing table from within the application I was originally using to design the sign in the first place, yes? Usually that's going to be CorelDRAW and/or Adobe Illustrator. Or I can make the shapes within EnRoute itself. Why do I need to launch a 3D modeling and animation app to do any of that?

You do realize that I was talking about them in reference to Ps (and Painter with regard to Krita) don't you? NOT Ai.

Yeah, that's despite much of the focus on this discussion being on ILLUSTRATOR. You're constantly trying steer the discussion over into irrelevant territory. Most discussions on this forum center around vector drawing applications. That's because most of the graphics work done at sign companies is still done in the vector realm. I'm not going to use Photoshop to design a lighted pylon sign or channel letters for a building.

If you really want to talk about Photoshop and replacing it with one of its rivals then that is an even harder sell. I'm even less likely to ditch Photoshop than I am Illustrator. General purpose pixel-based editors that compete against Photoshop really tend to suck, including GIMP. They'll duplicate many of Photoshop's features (to varying degrees of success) but lack the user interface, keyboard shortcuts and many other things under the hood that make Photoshop the King of all image editors. The only other pixel-based image editors I like at all are ones that specialize on a certain niche. Procreate is wonderful to use on an iPad Pro. But I would never use it on a desktop PC as a replacement for Photoshop.

Just a refresher, you said this:

I know what I said. Do you not have anything better to do with your time than parse my comments into dozens of separate snippet quotes to second guess and insult? Anyone with an actual life wouldn't have the spare time to respond line by line to all your fragment responses.

I didn't say that they were in the preferences. Remember, to change the user interface, add in HiDPI support (which is now officially only coming to Inkscape 1.0, but has been supported by the community since .48) one has to drag and drop (and replace) files. Not going to be found in preferences. Not all that difficult to do, those that have created those files have provided quite robust documentation about what files to swap out, backup and/or replace. And not something new that the users have to do here with other more mainstream programs as well when backing up preferences from one install to the next so not have to redo the whole setup again. That's nothing but drag, drop and replace.

That's still sounds like time-wasting PITA garbage. I've gotta venture out into the user community to search around for the resources needed to get Inkscape to run on par with Illustrator or CorelDRAW? I have a better solution for that: I can keep using Illustrator and/or CorelDRAW. I don't have to waste a bunch of time hacking those programs to get them to run productively.

Those are options that are provided "as is" to users. I'm not talking about tweaking things that the companies allow you to tweak. I'm talking about tweaking beyond that. I go back to HiDPI support in Inkscape. If Adobe, Corel doesn't have HiDPI support (I'm not saying that's the case now, just as an example), end users are out of luck, have to wait on Adobe/Corel to implement that for them. No HiDPI support in Inkscape, end users implement that ability and share that ability with others that may not have been able to do that on their own until it's officially integrated into Inkscape (if ever, in this case it is going to be).

You are implying Inkscape is somehow ahead of Illustrator or CorelDRAW when that really isn't the case. Both Illustrator and CorelDRAW have had "HiDPI support" (adjustable tool/icon sizes) going back multiple versions. What is Inkscape actually INNOVATING rather than copying?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

You do realize I can make 2D shapes to send to a routing table from within the application I was originally using to design the sign in the first place, yes? Usually that's going to be CorelDRAW and/or Adobe Illustrator. Or I can make the shapes within EnRoute itself. Why do I need to launch a 3D modeling and animation app to do any of that?

It was in response to your response that it was 2D shapes that go to router. I was giving an example of that it can be accomplished within Blender as well.

Yeah, that's despite much of the focus on this discussion being on ILLUSTRATOR. You're constantly trying steer the discussion over into irrelevant territory. Most discussions on this forum center around vector drawing applications. That's because most of the graphics work done at sign companies is still done in the vector realm. I'm not going to use Photoshop to design a lighted pylon sign or channel letters for a building.

If I'm not mistaken, you were the first person to mention Ps in this discussion. Not I. That door was opened by you, not I. I willingly went through it, but I didn't start it.

If you really want to talk about Photoshop and replacing it with one of its rivals then that is an even harder sell. I'm even less likely to ditch Photoshop than I am Illustrator. General purpose pixel-based editors that compete against Photoshop really tend to suck, including GIMP. They'll duplicate many of Photoshop's features (to varying degrees of success) but lack the user interface, keyboard shortcuts and many other things under the hood that make Photoshop the King of all image editors. The only other pixel-based image editors I like at all are ones that specialize on a certain niche. Procreate is wonderful to use on an iPad Pro. But I would never use it on a desktop PC as a replacement for Photoshop.

As I have stated, I'm not a fan of GIMP as it is, but you can change the UI and with scripting can get far more features.

As far as Procreate goes, even if you wanted to, I don't think you could put it on the desktop as it only is officially released for iPad.

I know what I said. Do you not have anything better to do with your time than parse my comments into dozens of separate snippet quotes to second guess and insult? Anyone with an actual life wouldn't have the spare time to respond line by line to all your fragment responses.

Then why the strawman? This isn't the first time. I'm having deja vu with the whole "bigger artboard" versus "unlimited artboard" among other discussion.

I separate my responses and to what they are responding to to help make it easier. Otherwise, I could just do it all in one paragraph. No punctuation and all that.

I have to ask, if I'm out there so much and have will just ignorant notions, why not put me on ignore then don't have to read anything that I type?

That's still sounds like time-wasting PITA garbage. I've gotta venture out into the user community to search around for the resources needed to get Inkscape to run on par with Illustrator or CorelDRAW?

Not much different then coming to S101 to get help on getting things up to par. Why software isn't acting right in this instance etc because the software vendor is saying that it's an issue with your hardware and your hardware vendor saying it's an issue with your software.

I have a better solution for that: I can keep using Illustrator and/or CorelDRAW. I don't have to waste a bunch of time hacking those programs to get them to run productively.

That's fine, nothing wrong with that, do what's best for you. The suggestions that I would have aren't directed at you as it is as it appears to me that you are firmly entrenched in a certain belief and don't really have plans to even be open to altering it. Which by all means, go ahead.

You are implying Inkscape is somehow ahead of Illustrator or CorelDRAW when that really isn't the case. Both Illustrator and CorelDRAW have had "HiDPI support" (adjustable tool/icon sizes) going back multiple versions. What is Inkscape actually INNOVATING rather than copying?

Dear god, another strawman. That was an example of what one could do, I stated in there that I said that wasn't the case with Adobe/Corel missing that functionality, but it was just as an example if there was missing functionality that it would be possible for end users to add that in there compared to lacking that ability to add functionality easily in Adobe/Corel for end users that is.

You degrade the fact that I go line by line, but this stuff happens. That's why I do it, to try to help mitigate this right here. I try to make it easier to help prevent this, I guess it's a wasted effort.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

All of this talk about HiDPI, I decided to look more thoroughly into it. Since my poor graphics card doesn't support HiDPI, I still don't have it. I'm still stuck with my Wacom 27QHD.

So it looks like the timeline for 4k support that I found was:

Adobe CS6 had HiDPI support, but to get it to work right, had to create an external manifest file for the program to tell Windows how to treat it. It wasn't until the Creator's update and going into the compatibility settings that rendered this hack unnecessary.

Inkscape .48 in 2014, community support. Now you could get HiDPI support using the dev builds. This was during the transition from GTK2 to GTK3 stack and GTK2 didn't support HiDPI, while 3 does. Now this (and for GIMP) use of the GTK stack is why you also don't like it's UI. It's based on Gnome's UI philosophies and if anyone here has tried a vanilla Gnome 3.x DE, I doubt most of y'all would like it. I use Gnome on one of my computers and it is far from vanilla.

Now Draw was the shocker. No official support until the 2017 version for 4k. From X6 until it was official supported in 2017, there was registry hack to get it look better on 4k screens, but it still wasn't perfect.

So while you said this:

I don't have to waste a bunch of time hacking those programs to get them to run productively.

While it appears that you may not have to directly hack on the programs itself, you may have had to hack on the OS to get them to run productively if running them on Windows.

 

[Bobby H]

It was in response to your response that it was 2D shapes that go to router. I was giving an example of that it can be accomplished within Blender as well.

Who cares? If I'm already designing the sign in CorelDRAW or Illustrator there's no reason to get Blender involved in the production process. Now, if it's a big enough project and the customer wants to see a 3D rendering of a proposed sign incorporated into an image of the business site then that's something where Blender can be useful.

If I'm not mistaken, you were the first person to mention Ps in this discussion. Not I. That door was opened by you, not I. I willingly went through it, but I didn't start it.

You are mistaken. I didn't mention Photoshop specifically until post #40, eight posts after you mentioned it in post #32 in relation GIMP. You brought up GIMP and Krita in post #34, then added Synfig and Blender to the mix in post #37. When I mentioned Photoshop for the first time in post #40 I mentioned it in the context of the application being confined to a number of niche uses rather than mainstream sign design/production use.

Photoshop has actually been mentioned rarely in this thread. kcollinsdesign was the first to mention Photshop in post #17 by saying "I use both Adobe and Corel products for different projects, but mostly stay with AI and PS for day-to-day tasks. Adobe products are the professional standard, have the most features and plug-ins available, present the fewest compatibility problems, and most designers already know how to use them. As far as I'm concerned, the cost is insignificant." I'm kind of surprised you didn't issue a rebuttal response to kcollinsdesign calling Adobe products "the professional standard." In post #23 burgmurk said, "My only complaint is i have to pay for premiere and after effects when i really don't need them for work. If i could get a reduced subscription price for just PS, AI, and ID i'd be a happy man." Shoresigns mentioned PS in post #38 in regard to the the PSD/PSB, AI, IDML and PDF formats Adobe has published for other developers to use.

As I have stated, I'm not a fan of GIMP as it is, but you can change the UI and with scripting can get far more features. As far as Procreate goes, even if you wanted to, I don't think you could put it on the desktop as it only is officially released for iPad.

The mention of Procreate on the desktop was obviously a "what if" scenario. I already know it was made exclusively for iOS (and the iPad). I actually use it. But you still had to correct me on that point. With that being said Vectornator Pro (another iPad graphics app) is being ported to the OSX desktop. I wouldn't be surprised if Procreate was eventually ported to OSX or even Windows. Regarding GIMP and adding new features via scripting, most graphic design people don't know how to code or just don't have time for that drudgery. Putting it bluntly, too many graphic designers out there have trouble just living up to the "graphic designer" thing.

I know what I said. Do you not have anything better to do with your time than parse my comments into dozens of separate snippet quotes to second guess and insult? Anyone with an actual life wouldn't have the spare time to respond line by line to all your fragment responses.

Then why the strawman? This isn't the first time. I'm having deja vu with the whole "bigger artboard" versus "unlimited artboard" among other discussion.

Please explain how what I said above is a strawman. I'm not putting words in your mouth. You're clearly talking down to me in your posts as if I'm some kind of newbie idiot. Accusing me of propping up a strawman is just more of the condescending BS. Your bias is way out there for everyone to see (including a sort-of admission in post #3). You said Adobe was staying in business because a bunch (but not all) of its user base is effectively drinking the kool-aid in post #25.

I separate my responses and to what they are responding to to help make it easier. Otherwise, I could just do it all in one paragraph. No punctuation and all that.

You could try a happy medium incorporating paragraphs containing sentences with punctuation into a post that didn't involve lots of scrolling over lots of snippet responses to quote fragments, some of which have to just be moved past because there's not enough time to respond to every line by line by line item. When one bothers to respond to every point that garbage devolves into sidebars of sidebars. Hopefully you'll kind of get the idea of what you've been putting me through with this Magnum Opus response. Lots and lots of separate quotes! But it's probably likely it will encourage a whole lot of sidebar of sidebar debates.

I have to ask, if I'm out there so much and have will just ignorant notions, why not put me on ignore then don't have to read anything that I type?

That's a good idea. But then it also begs the question why you haven't done that already to beat me to the punch?

That's still sounds like time-wasting PITA garbage. I've gotta venture out into the user community to search around for the resources needed to get Inkscape to run on par with Illustrator or CorelDRAW?

Not much different then coming to S101 to get help on getting things up to par. Why software isn't acting right in this instance etc because the software vendor is saying that it's an issue with your hardware and your hardware vendor saying it's an issue with your software.

The Signs 101 forum is one single destination. And the solutions participants provide for various issues are usually pretty fast and simple ("what font is this?"), not tasks that involve writing scripts or code to solve the problem.

I have a better solution for that: I can keep using Illustrator and/or CorelDRAW. I don't have to waste a bunch of time hacking those programs to get them to run productively.

That's fine, nothing wrong with that, do what's best for you. The suggestions that I would have aren't directed at you as it is as it appears to me that you are firmly entrenched in a certain belief and don't really have plans to even be open to altering it. Which by all means, go ahead.

Given the fact we're the only two people still participating in this conversation and I supposedly have my mind made up permanently about graphics software who else are you addressing? BTW, the "belief system" thing is pretty off-putting. I've provided many valid reasons why using Adobe software in a sign business or other type of design business is worthwhile. It's not about drinking someone's kool-aid. But, if we're talking about people into drinking the kool-aid it's more likely to be customers who take note of the tools you're using. It's already embarrassing enough sign makers have to use Windows-based PCs to get things done anymore rather than use the far more fashionable Apple-branded hardware. But if you tell a client you can't really use that new-fangled Adobe Illustrator file he sent you then he might start wondering how "professional" an operating you're running. That kind of gets back to what kcollinsdesign said in post #17.

You are implying Inkscape is somehow ahead of Illustrator or CorelDRAW when that really isn't the case. Both Illustrator and CorelDRAW have had "HiDPI support" (adjustable tool/icon sizes) going back multiple versions. What is Inkscape actually INNOVATING rather than copying?

Dear god, another strawman. That was an example of what one could do, I stated in there that I said that wasn't the case with Adobe/Corel missing that functionality, but it was just as an example if there was missing functionality that it would be possible for end users to add that in there compared to lacking that ability to add functionality easily in Adobe/Corel for end users that is.

It's not a strawman at all. I asked what is Inkscape doing that's new that isn't copying from another application. What are they doing to actually move ahead of Adobe or even Corel? What was your motive behind bringing up HiDPI support other than to prove somehow Inkscape is superior? To me, bringing up HiDPI support was grasping at straws. HiDPI just a UI feature between the application and the operating system. I personally don't care about real HiDPI support at this point since I don't currently have a 4K display built into something like a modest sized notebook. But both Illustrator and CorelDRAW have had ways how users could change tool and icon sizes for a long time even if those features don't technically qualify as being HiDPI.

While it appears that you may not have to directly hack on the programs itself, you may have had to hack on the OS to get them to run productively if running them on Windows.

I wouldn't exactly call right-clicking on the Windows desktop to select Display Settings and then adjusting Scale and Layout settings for type size in menus "hacking the OS." It sure doesn't involve writing any code/scripts.

 

[GAC05]

This thread is like the impeachment hearings - only longer.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I'm kind of surprised you didn't issue a rebuttal response to kcollinsdesign calling Adobe products "the professional standard."

I don't disagree that Adobe is the standard.

Shoresigns mentioned PS in post #38 in regard to the the PSD/PSB, AI, IDML and PDF formats Adobe has published for other developers to use.

With the caveat of the information is not promised to be complete, accurate (both of which is pro forma), but they also mentioned that this does not obligate Adobe to continue providing such measures.

Given that the Ai document that was linked to was from Ai7, I think it's changed since then. One was from the CS6 era, I think Ps atleast had a current copyright date on it.

Regarding GIMP and adding new features via scripting, most graphic design people don't know how to code or just don't have time for that drudgery.

First off, don't always have to do it yourself. Typically one can find one already done. Second, I tend to see quite a few people on here talking about creating macros for Draw. Not much of a difference. And I do think those are shared as well, so don't have to write those yourself.

Please explain how what I said above is a strawman. I'm not putting words in your mouth.

The point of that post was to show that even if functionality didnt exist in the first place in that specific program, it can be added by end users and then shared for other end users. While end users tend to have to wait until functionality like that is added by the vendor itself. I could care less if something was in one program before the other. That wasn't the point.

You said Adobe was staying in business because a bunch (but not all) of its user base is effectively drinking the kool-aid in post #25.

I do believe that there is quite a few of the Adobe user base (and I was one of them) that think that in order to succeed in this or in other design related industries have to use their programs. Not much different then some extending that logic to Apple products as well. That's more of the kool-aid that I would be thinking of.

That's a good idea. why you haven't done that already to beat me to the punch?

I don't believe in blocking anyone's opinion. Agree with it or not, I don't believe in sticking my head in the sand.

The Signs 101 forum is one single destination. And the solutions participants provide for various issues are usually pretty fast and simple ("what font is this?"), not tasks that involve writing scripts or code to solve the problem.

I would agree that that is the majority of what it is now. I actually do see some with regard to macro/scripting. myront actually participates in a few of those and is a huge advocate of that. Actions versus macros, that sparks a good discussion.

I've provided many valid reasons why using Adobe software in a sign business or other type of design business is worthwhile.

I would agree with worthwhile. Absolute necessity is something else.

But, if we're talking about people into drinking the kool-aid it's more likely to be customers who take note of the tools you're using. It's already embarrassing enough sign makers have to use Windows-based PCs to get things done anymore rather than use the far more fashionable Apple-branded hardware. But if you tell a client you can't really use that new-fangled Adobe Illustrator file he sent you then he might start wondering how "professional" an operating you're running. That kind of gets back to what kcollinsdesign said in post #17.

Good point. Depending on your customer base, that could very well be a point of contention, if it does apply. That all depends.

It's not a strawman at all. I asked what is Inkscape doing that's new that isn't copying from another application. What are they doing to actually move ahead of Adobe or even Corel? What was your motive behind bringing up HiDPI support other than to prove somehow Inkscape is superior? To me, bringing up HiDPI support was grasping at straws. HiDPI just a UI feature between the application and the operating system. I personally don't care about real HiDPI support at this point since I don't currently have a 4K display built into something like a modest sized notebook. But both Illustrator and CorelDRAW have had ways how users could change tool and icon sizes for a long time even if those features don't technically qualify as being HiDPI.

It is. My point is X and your point is Y. HiDPI is only an example and the only reason why I used it was that I already mentioned it earlier in that post and it would have been something that applies to anyone in the graphics industry or related field.

Print, Inkscape is going to suck at (which I said several times), which is why I wouldn't suggest it for print work without using something else to help it along. Just about anything that didn't use the SVG as a master format is going to be better out of the box.

Where the advantage is, and I was just using HiDPI as an example, is that you know all those features that you believe should have been incorporated into Ai/Draw for years/decades even and may not still be in those programs? You have to wait until Adobe/Corel decides to implement them. That may not necessarily be the case in Inkscape.

Now, as far as where it excels coming direct for Inkscape, that's going to be more related to web work. Some sign shops may do it, some may not (even if it's just supply graphics for someone else to use it as web work). A lot of tools that help with JS and CSS manipulation. Another advantage that Inkscape uses, also related to the file format and this would be more applicable has to do with CAM work. Inkscape's version of SVG allows to hold more info in the file. Gcode, cutter, laser info and it's persistent within the file. The plugins that I used in Ai that dealt with this were only good for the session.

Now, if you were to take that same SVG file into Ai/Draw and resave as an SVG. They destroy all that info in the file. They strictly follow XML markup. Inkscape will just ignore what it doesn't recognize.

Considering SVG isn't those programs master file, that's ok. But that functionality, to my knowledge, doesn't exist in their master file. It's either export to a separate file or once you close out, it's gone. In my experience.

That's only worthwhile if you aren't using a dedicated program for each of those tasks, which would provide even better functionality since they were created for that exact purpose. This is more for those that like to use one program for as much as they can. Does come with some caveats, but it does have some advantages, depending on the severity of the demands.

I wouldn't exactly call right-clicking on the Windows desktop to select Display Settings and then adjusting Scale and Layout settings for type size in menus "hacking the OS." It sure doesn't involve writing any code/scripts.

No, but creating manifest files would be considering coding (not programming, but coding) and that would be hacking on it. I think even Dan A had a blog post related to his trials and tribulations of getting it working right back in the day. And making registry edits (what one had to do for Draw to help it along until it had full support), I would for sure consider hacking.