Substrate question

[Bradley Signs]

I have a Church that wants a sign built with longevity in mind, so I explained that steel framing may be the answer, and of course regular maintenance is the key.

So, with that being said, if I were to build steel frame work, as in, two steel pole uprights, and a bottom cross bar, a letter "H" type set up, would it better to use sheets of aluminum for faces, mounted on a steel angle frame work, or is there a good solid substrate besides sign board, say, 1/2" thick PVC for example, that I could fasten on each end, to the uprights, with aluminum faces glued to it, or riveted/screwed with stainless fasteners?

I have no idea what materials are available these days for building something that will last a good number of years.

This would be double sided...

This is the shape of things to come....

 

[2B]

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[Texas_Signmaker]

1" or so angle along the inside edges of the frame that will hold a 6mm ACM face in place. I've been satisfied with using 6mm ACM, seems sturdy enough for double sided applications. You can also do 080 but I always prefer the 6mm route.

 

[Bradley Signs]

1" or so angle along the inside edges of the frame that will hold a 6mm ACM face in place. I've been satisfied with using 6mm ACM, seems sturdy enough for double sided applications. You can also do 080 but I always prefer the 6mm route.

I'm not sure if that would be strong enough... This is Texas, and the wind is not kind to sign faces... I hope to have the frame with a sheet of something on each side... So for it to last, it needs to be strong....

I was really hoping to NOT use a frame, but old skool still rules I think....

 

[DL Signs]

I'm not sure if that would be strong enough... This is Texas, and the wind is not kind to sign faces... I hope to have the frame with a sheet of something on each side... So for it to last, it needs to be strong....

I was really hoping to NOT use a frame, but old skool still rules I think....

We do a lot of installs like that using aluminum frames, and aluminum composite panels like ACM and Dibond.
Up here in the north we get temps from -30 to +90, a lot of high winter winds, all the brutal to sign weather, and they hold up really well. Old skool rules.

 

[Bradley Signs]

We do a lot of installs like that using aluminum frames, and aluminum composite panels like ACM and Dibond.
Up here in the north we get temps from -30 to +90, a lot of high winter winds, all the brutal to sign weather, and they hold up really well. Old skool rules.

I'm from the South Shore of Lake Erie! Lake Effect! Same as what you have.... That's why I left, hot here, but much better Winters and Falls and Springs...

With a nice frame behind it, yeah, it's OK, But again, I'm old skool and I have tried using Dibond and others, as I call them, skimpy materials, and I went back to using MDO... The hail here would punch right through, and ding dongs on brush hogs hit and twist sign frames, whether steel or wood and just shred it....

But this guy is intent on having something that makes him feel comfortable with the fact that it won't wimp out on him, as I do too...

Soooo... looking for an idea of what might really be a good solid sheet of something....

Great input, thanx.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Who is gonna roll that rectangular tube at the top? No offense but if you are capable of building the frame then you should be capable of building it to hold whatever face material that you want. If you tack flatbar around the inside perimeter and flat bar or angle up and down for rear support you could use any face material that you wanted to. Really though, if you are doing it all in steel, why not face it with 063 paint grip, stitch it in, prime it, seam seal it, paint the whole thing and then just apply your vinyl on the finished frame? Why have seperate faces?

 

[Bradley Signs]

Who is gonna roll that rectangular tube at the top? No offense but if you are capable of building the frame then you should be capable of building it to hold whatever face material that you want. If you tack flatbar around the inside perimeter and flat bar or angle up and down for rear support you could use any face material that you wanted to. Really though, if you are doing it all in steel, why not face it with 063 paint grip, stitch it in, prime it, seam seal it, paint the whole thing and then just apply your vinyl on the finished frame? Why have seperate faces?

There are a couple places around Dallas that will roll it for me, but like I stated, I was hoping to find a good thick sheet of something to use, hence asking if PVC might be a good choice.

Remember, the customer is leading the way at this point, and when he is done running amok with ideas, I want to be prepared to hit him with one good idea, so, I am researching options before jumping in head first.

He DOES NOT want MDO, or this convo wouldn't even exist.


So what is 063 paint grip?

This bloke is essentially looking for something that will last a live time...

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

There are a couple places around Dallas that will roll it for me, but like I stated, I was hoping to find a good thick sheet of something to use, hence asking if PVC might be a good choice.

Remember, the customer is leading the way at this point, and when he is done running amok with ideas, I want to be prepared to hit him with one good idea, so, I am researching options before jumping in head first.

He DOES NOT want MDO, or this convo wouldn't even exist.


So what is 063 paint grip?

This bloke is essentially looking for something that will last a live time...

First of all... how old are you? It just needs to last as long as YOU live.

From your drawing it looked like a single substrate. If I'm doing a double sided sign around here and I'm starting from scratch, I put framework in the middle and use two sheets of aluminum on either side. I feel you on the MDO, I've been getting more fond of it myself, but those sheets get heavier by the day. Hail will damage things, there is no getting away from that. Sounds like you're better off selling him a concrete sign. Those Foamcraft signs that 2B suggested are pretty good too... that polyarmor is tough stuff... trust me, I've have to cut some of that stuff up.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

There are a couple places around Dallas that will roll it for me, but like I stated, I was hoping to find a good thick sheet of something to use, hence asking if PVC might be a good choice.

Remember, the customer is leading the way at this point, and when he is done running amok with ideas, I want to be prepared to hit him with one good idea, so, I am researching options before jumping in head first.

He DOES NOT want MDO, or this convo wouldn't even exist.


So what is 063 paint grip?

This bloke is essentially looking for something that will last a live time...

paint grip is bonderized steel, its a phosphate coating similar to galvanizing but it will accept paint without any substantial prep work.

 

[Bradley Signs]

First of all... how old are you? It just needs to last as long as YOU live.

From your drawing it looked like a single substrate. If I'm doing a double sided sign around here and I'm starting from scratch, I put framework in the middle and use two sheets of aluminum on either side. I feel you on the MDO, I've been getting more fond of it myself, but those sheets get heavier by the day. Hail will damage things, there is no getting away from that. Sounds like you're better off selling him a concrete sign. Those Foamcraft signs that 2B suggested are pretty good too... that polyarmor is tough stuff... trust me, I've have to cut some of that stuff up.

I still have my lettering brushes and some One Shot!

That old enough.?

Hahahhaa... Thanx for even looking at the picture. That's what it's there for, and, I'm looking for suggestions on a substrate that might work as a single sheet, nothing more.

Yes! That's how I always do these type signs... frame work!

I have used MDO since the late 70's... know as Marine Plywood back then. The Amish build there buggies out of it, still seems to be about the most durable to me, buuuuuuuuuut.... this Gentleman has his mindset on what he thinks is best, so I will try to give him what he wants... The old style way. The customer comes first, just like at The Mustang Ranch.

When I meet with him again, I am just gonna show him a steel frame design with alumanumion on it, and call it a day...

This customer takes me WAY back to a time when I was painting interiors, and this Attorney fella had me paint his bedroom about 10 times, changing the tint by just a few drops every time, and when he asked one more time, I said, Sure!

Never put on another coat and he thought it was perfect!

I may have been young and dumb and fulla scum, but I wasn't that stupid...

 

[Bradley Signs]

paint grip is bonderized steel, its a phosphate coating similar to galvanizing but it will accept paint without any substantial prep work.

Thanx mate. Never heard of it. I'll give it a look see...

 

[rjssigns]

I'm not sure if that would be strong enough... This is Texas, and the wind is not kind to sign faces... I hope to have the frame with a sheet of something on each side... So for it to last, it needs to be strong....

I was really hoping to NOT use a frame, but old skool still rules I think....

If you're worried about wind load then fuse two 6mm ACM together with panel bond.
If that isn't enough then weld a perimeter frame with internal stringers then panel bond 6mm ACM faces to that.
If that still isn't strong enough you can always shoot stock car panel rivets through the perimeter into the internal framework then color match.
From a few feet away you won't notice.

Personally I like the internal framework. Gives you better/stronger mounting options.

But before I would do any of that ask the building codes office in your town what the wind load specs are in the area.

 

[Gino]

Ya wanna do it right, then do it right.

This is all .125 aluminum tube and sheets. After the other side is completed, it will be taken out for powder coating. The legs are 3' x 3" aluminum tubing and run all the way to the top on the inside. The backer board is 1/8" veneered and polished and the panels are also 1/8" stock and polished.

When you want strength and longevity, ya don't use ACM panels for any of this kinda crap.


The really funny part is, I just met with a woman yesterday evening about a sign almost identical to your rough draft in the OP. She wanted to use Cor-X. I almost busted out laughing. She said...... well, it's waterproof. I said, so is your skin, but do you think you could stand outside all day, all night, hot, cold and last for 10 years ??

 

[Billct2]

I'd get a price from Charleston or similar wholesaler for an aluminum frame/face sign that is powdercoated.

 

[bob]

Regular maintenance for a sign? That's a thing?

Is sounds like you're building a section of a battleship, not a sign. Whatever you end up doing for a frame, use 6mm, or even 3mm will work, aluminum laminate [Dibond, Nudo, whatever they call it in your village] for the sign substrate. The stuff will outlast the next ice age.

 

[brdesign]

I wouldn't use pvc for a long term outdoor sign, it can be bad for warping if you are not very careful to mount it in a way that allows it to expand and contract with the temperature changes. I've seen 1-inch thick black PVC signs warp when the summer texture gets in the upper 90s.

 

[Scotchbrite]

I would definitely use aluminum panels.

paint grip is bonderized steel, its a phosphate coating similar to galvanizing but it will accept paint without any substantial prep work.

We always called it "paint lock". I wonder if that's a brand thing or just a vernacular thing.

 

[Bradley Signs]

Regular maintenance for a sign? That's a thing?

Is sounds like you're building a section of a battleship, not a sign. Whatever you end up doing for a frame, use 6mm, or even 3mm will work, aluminum laminate [Dibond, Nudo, whatever they call it in your village] for the sign substrate. The stuff will outlast the next ice age.

I have always been an over builder.... it has always worked for me... Thanx...

 

[Bradley Signs]

I would definitely use aluminum panels.


We always called it "paint lock". I wonder if that's a brand thing or just a vernacular thing.

It can't be in the Vernacular. You and I are probably the only two on the planet that knows what that means! HA!