Substrate question

[Bradley Signs]

I wouldn't use pvc for a long term outdoor sign, it can be bad for warping if you are not very careful to mount it in a way that allows it to expand and contract with the temperature changes. I've seen 1-inch thick black PVC signs warp when the summer texture gets in the upper 90s.

That's what I thought, hence my mentioning Texas and how bloody hot it gets here, and getting hotter every year...

 

[Bradley Signs]

If you're worried about wind load then fuse two 6mm ACM together with panel bond.
If that isn't enough then weld a perimeter frame with internal stringers then panel bond 6mm ACM faces to that.
If that still isn't strong enough you can always shoot stock car panel rivets through the perimeter into the internal framework then color match.
From a few feet away you won't notice.

Personally I like the internal framework. Gives you better/stronger mounting options.

But before I would do any of that ask the building codes office in your town what the wind load specs are in the area.

Building codes? BUILDING CODES!? We don't need no stinking building codes! Hahahaha.... I was just worried about blowout... but I think I am going to try to convince him to use the frame work... always the best way to go....

 

[signbrad]

different grades of acm hold up at different rates, but sign grade acm in its current state is not what it used to be

This is true. Years ago, there were ACM panels with 15-year warranties. But look at the warranties on Dibond and Polymetal. 5 years. And that might be a limited warranty. Which means...what exactly?
High quality, long-lasting monument signs are generally not made with ACM panels, especially if the faces are routered. A routered ACM panel will de-laminate long before an .080" aluminum face fails.
The architectural panels made of ACM are not the same as the ones we use, as JBurton said. The ones we use in signs are not even legal for building cladding.

If you mount a square tube frame between the posts, the tube being either aluminum or steel, you can skin both sides with .080". This will easily outlast ACM or MDO. And it will never warp like PVC. I would attach the .080" with screws or rivets rather than adhesives, making the faces removable for re-painting in 8 (or whatever) years. A truss head screw is low profile. Or you could even use flat heads if you want, coutersinking the hole in the .080", but it will still not be invisible and may not be worth the trouble.

I like the inexpensive materials. ACM, MDO and PVC all have their place. I have even installed exterior letters cut out of Gatorfoam (2-year life, or less if birds peck through the painted edges to get at the foam). But use these materials for long-lasting monument faces? I guess it depends on your definition of "long-lasting." The industry standard is .080" (or .125") aluminum sheet painted with polyurethane coatings.

One note about ACM: a stainless steel screw can have a galvanic reaction to the paper thin aluminum on these panels. In the presence of moisture, the stainless will attack the aluminum, destroying it at the points of attachment. The corrosion starts at the exposed edges of the aluminum within the holes, where the aluminum can make contact with the stainless. The corrosion can then spread outward from the hole underneath the ACM's paint film. Of course, painting the screw heads after installing can delay this. But a galvanized or an aluminum fastener is a better choice than stainless for attaching ACM panels. On a wall, a nylon/stainless pin-grip fastener naturally insulates the pin from the substrate.

The reaction between aluminum and stainless steel is similar to what occurs in a wet cell battery. The anode becomes the sacrificial negative side and the electrons flow from it to the cathode side through an electrolyte. In the case of contact between aluminum and stainless, aluminum loses its electrons to the stainless. It literally dissolves in the process. The electrolyte is moisture. Typically, this galvanic reaction is not a problem with sign construction, because most of the aluminum we use is not paper thin. But on ACM panels, the aluminum IS paper thin.

In some areas of construction—indoor pools, for example, where equipment may be suspended from ceilings in a wet environment—stainless steel fasteners must be insulated from aluminum components by nylon washers.

Brad in Kansas City

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I would definitely use aluminum panels.


We always called it "paint lock". I wonder if that's a brand thing or just a vernacular thing.

Likely so. I have a customer that calls it galvanized, it drives me nuts. Like saying "pop" instead of soda, bet Stacey uses that one.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

This is true. Years ago, there were ACM panels with 15-year warranties. But look at the warranties on Dibond and Polymetal. 5 years. And that might be a limited warranty. Which means...what exactly?
High quality, long-lasting monument signs are generally not made with ACM panels, especially if the faces are routered. A routered ACM panel will de-laminate long before an .080" aluminum face fails.
The architectural panels made of ACM are not the same as the ones we use, as JBurton said. The ones we use in signs are not even legal for building cladding.

If you mount a square tube frame between the posts, the tube being either aluminum or steel, you can skin both sides with .080". This will easily outlast ACM or MDO. And it will never warp like PVC. I would attach the .080" with screws or rivets rather than adhesives, making the faces removable for re-painting in 8 (or whatever) years. A truss head screw is low profile. Or you could even use flat heads if you want, coutersinking the hole in the .080", but it will still not be invisible and may not be worth the trouble.

I like the inexpensive materials. ACM, MDO and PVC all have their place. I have even installed exterior letters cut out of Gatorfoam (2-year life, or less if birds peck through the painted edges to get at the foam). But use these materials for long-lasting monument faces? I guess it depends on your definition of "long-lasting." The industry standard is .080" (or .125") aluminum sheet painted with polyurethane coatings.

One note about ACM: a stainless steel screw can have a galvanic reaction to the paper thin aluminum on these panels. In the presence of moisture, the stainless will attack the aluminum, destroying it at the points of attachment. The corrosion starts at the exposed edges of the aluminum within the holes, where the aluminum can make contact with the stainless. The corrosion can then spread outward from the hole underneath the ACM's paint film. Of course, painting the screw heads after installing can delay this. But a galvanized or an aluminum fastener is a better choice than stainless for attaching ACM panels. On a wall, a nylon/stainless pin-grip fastener naturally insulates the pin from the substrate.

The reaction between aluminum and stainless steel is similar to what occurs in a wet cell battery. The anode becomes the sacrificial negative side and the electrons flow from it to the cathode side through an electrolyte. In the case of contact between aluminum and stainless, aluminum loses its electrons to the stainless. It literally dissolves in the process. The electrolyte is moisture. Typically, this galvanic reaction is not a problem with sign construction, because most of the aluminum we use is not paper thin. But on ACM panels, the aluminum IS paper thin.

In some areas of construction—indoor pools, for example, where equipment may be suspended from ceilings in a wet environment—stainless steel fasteners must be insulated from aluminum components by nylon washers.

Brad in Kansas City

Dumb tidbit, the Epcot ball is clad in ACM. It's a flammable material but available in fire resistant varieties. I think that's what caused that high rise fire in the UK to get out of control a few years ago.

 

[Bradley Signs]

This is true. Years ago, there were ACM panels with 15-year warranties. But look at the warranties on Dibond and Polymetal. 5 years. And that might be a limited warranty. Which means...what exactly?
High quality, long-lasting monument signs are generally not made with ACM panels, especially if the faces are routered. A routered ACM panel will de-laminate long before an .080" aluminum face fails.
The architectural panels made of ACM are not the same as the ones we use, as JBurton said. The ones we use in signs are not even legal for building cladding.

If you mount a square tube frame between the posts, the tube being either aluminum or steel, you can skin both sides with .080". This will easily outlast ACM or MDO. And it will never warp like PVC. I would attach the .080" with screws or rivets rather than adhesives, making the faces removable for re-painting in 8 (or whatever) years. A truss head screw is low profile. Or you could even use flat heads if you want, coutersinking the hole in the .080", but it will still not be invisible and may not be worth the trouble.

I like the inexpensive materials. ACM, MDO and PVC all have their place. I have even installed exterior letters cut out of Gatorfoam (2-year life, or less if birds peck through the painted edges to get at the foam). But use these materials for long-lasting monument faces? I guess it depends on your definition of "long-lasting." The industry standard is .080" (or .125") aluminum sheet painted with polyurethane coatings.

One note about ACM: a stainless steel screw can have a galvanic reaction to the paper thin aluminum on these panels. In the presence of moisture, the stainless will attack the aluminum, destroying it at the points of attachment. The corrosion starts at the exposed edges of the aluminum within the holes, where the aluminum can make contact with the stainless. The corrosion can then spread outward from the hole underneath the ACM's paint film. Of course, painting the screw heads after installing can delay this. But a galvanized or an aluminum fastener is a better choice than stainless for attaching ACM panels. On a wall, a nylon/stainless pin-grip fastener naturally insulates the pin from the substrate.

The reaction between aluminum and stainless steel is similar to what occurs in a wet cell battery. The anode becomes the sacrificial negative side and the electrons flow from it to the cathode side through an electrolyte. In the case of contact between aluminum and stainless, aluminum loses its electrons to the stainless. It literally dissolves in the process. The electrolyte is moisture. Typically, this galvanic reaction is not a problem with sign construction, because most of the aluminum we use is not paper thin. But on ACM panels, the aluminum IS paper thin.

In some areas of construction—indoor pools, for example, where equipment may be suspended from ceilings in a wet environment—stainless steel fasteners must be insulated from aluminum components by nylon washers.

Brad in Kansas City

Very interesting, and, I have noticed many of the things you have pointed out, and those are a few of the reasons I stopped using ACMs... Also if I may add, the fact that they are very hard to dispose of at a recycler, because most have told me they consider them more plastic and not enough Aluminum... so they won't take them.

So there is a lot of waste, and, you have to pay to dispose of at a land fill, so in essence, they cost more in the long run.

I stick to MDO as much as possible, because it is reusable. For more than just signs too.

Thanx for the info.

 

[visual800]

Never use steel on a sign like this. You would be better with aluminum structure. Steel is going to rust there is no avoiding it. Aluminum would also be easier to create the arch at top also. thats all I use for structures. for the face you could g with .063 and that would suffice

 

[Gino]

Yooo..... wait a minute. I thought this was the yank & the brit guy ??

 

[Boudica]

Yooo..... wait a minute. I thought this was the yank & the brit guy ??

Looks like he changed his name. Yankee and the Brit went better with his avatar

 

[Gino]

How in the flyin' f*ck can ya keeps tabs on anyone, if they keep changing names and avatars ?? %&#-(&@!i ^%)]{#/\

 

[Scotchbrite]

Likely so. I have a customer that calls it galvanized, it drives me nuts. Like saying "pop" instead of soda, bet Stacey uses that one.

I lived on the east coast for 6 years and one thing I picked up was saying "soda" instead of "pop". Now the use of "pop" kinda irritates me.

 

[Scotchbrite]

Y'all mean coke?

Yeah and then there's that!

"You want a coke?"
"Sure."
"What kind can I get you?"

 

[Boudica]

Y'all mean coke?

I thought you were all about the Smooth Citrus Soda?

 

[Gino]

Growing up, we mostly went into the corner store and got up on the stools at the soda fountain. One could really get what ya wanted that way. Double cheery or vanilla and whatever in with your cola and maybe even ice cream in it at the end. Oh, a brown cow. I liked mine with coke, not root beer.

 

[Scotchbrite]

Growing up, we mostly went into the corner store and got up on the stools at the soda fountain. One could really get what ya wanted that way. Double cheery or vanilla and whatever in with your cola and maybe even ice cream in it at the end. Oh, a brown cow. I liked mine with coke, not root beer.


View attachment 161139

I worked in my dad's soda and ice cream shop as a kid. We made all of those different drinks. Since having that shop, we also like to find places that serve real malts, not just shakes someone is calling a malt.

 

[Boudica]

Love malts! They are hard to find anymore. Gino, that ice cream soda looks YUM! Now I want one - with rootbeer though.

 

[Gino]

Gotta have the real malt. Root beer is too sweet with those drinks in my opinion. I mean it's all sweet, that's just toooo much sweet.

 

[Boudica]

When I used to get them - there was no soda involved. Malted Milkshakes is what I was thinking of I guess.

 

[Gino]

Oh, malted shakes are great, too. That's why what I posted is called a fountain soda brown cow. Ice cream float or soda was the common name and coke cola was generally used.

 

[signbrad]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here, as far as ultimate painted surface, is porcelainization.

I have seen decades-old porcelain letters that, when cleaned up, look new. Nothing else lasts as long. The worst thing about a porcelain sign face, besides the high cost, is that coatings do not stick to it if you want to repaint an old one. XIM Flash Bond would stick for a while, but no top coat lasted for a long time.

I've only installed porcelain letters once, in the late 70s, for a chemical plant that had lots of toxins and chemicals floating in the air. They told me that porcelain was the only kind of sign that would hold up at their location. In the break room the plant workers told me they bought new boots every two months because they don't last. I had to get a permit to work on the property with a drill, what they called a "hot permit." When I asked why they said, "So we know where to look for your body if you cause an explosion."

I think the letters came from a company called Philadelphia Enamel Works.

Brad