-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
switch from HP L26500 to SIEKO M64
- Thread starter bttweb
- Start date
Jeff South Florida
New Member
I know it is not an exact match. I have replaced 3 26500 machines in the last month with Mutoh VJ-1624. Customers were tired of issues and dealing with HP.
danno
New Member
We have a L26500 and even though HP is having a liquidation sale on the L260 now, I won't recommend one to the owners. I am currently working on files, media and arranging to get time to test drive the M64 at our local Seiko distributor. Latex has it's place, but it is now being recommended that it outgas 24 - 48 hours before laminating. How can you say that is a time saver?
P Wagner
--
This is an absolute and utter misstatement of fact. HP Latex inks should be immediately ready to go directly to the next stage of production (cutting, grommeting, mounting, or laminating) within minutes of coming off of the printer.
Christian @ 2CT Media
Active Member
Why would you need to "OUTGAS" latex when the only solvent isn't a chemical but water and that water should be 100% evaporated after the curing stage? We went from Mutoh solvent to HP L25500 and now a L26500 and we would never go back to a solvent machine ever, including full solvent.
Christian @ 2CT Media
Active Member
The out gassing is the evaporation process of the carriers of the ink pigments, HP Latex is a very Low VOC ink and they are released with the evaporation of the water carrier. The water used in HP Latex inks should be 100% evaporated from the surface of the substrate (Ink doesn't penetrate the surface of the substrate) after the curing process in HP Latex (Through the combination of Heat & Air Flow).
In current tech Solvent the chemical solvents used are held in the substrates (penetrates the substrate surface and changes the chemical make up) and are only removed through additional Heat, Air Flow, or Time. This means in nearly all current eco, mild, and full solvent machines (Except certain EPSON SureColor air blade machines) additional steps are required to insure complete curing of the inks.
In current tech Solvent the chemical solvents used are held in the substrates (penetrates the substrate surface and changes the chemical make up) and are only removed through additional Heat, Air Flow, or Time. This means in nearly all current eco, mild, and full solvent machines (Except certain EPSON SureColor air blade machines) additional steps are required to insure complete curing of the inks.
FrankW
New Member
The only part in the latex ink which could be categorized as "solvent" is an additive (a co-solvent) what is part of nearly all other Designjet Pigment- and Dye-Inks too. It is named 2-Pyrrolidone and is also part in pharmaceutical drugs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Pyrrolidone
Because of the very small amount of this fluid in the ink, I would not agree with your sentence "latex inks has VOC's just like other solvent inks, but not as much". They don't have "VOC's like other solvents", and I would replace "but not as much" with "nearly no VOC's" to say it right.
An other problem is when you heat PVC to 80 or 100°C. I think you will get some Plasticizer in the air around the printer.
Maybe small amounts of VOC then.. as described and published here
http://www.fespa.com/news/blogs/gue...1&spJobID=300806882&spReportId=MzAwODA2ODgyS0
http://www.fespa.com/news/blogs/gue...1&spJobID=300806882&spReportId=MzAwODA2ODgyS0
P Wagner
--
Consider the source. That is a marketing piece written by a 3rd-party solvent ink maker (Bordeaux).
P Wagner
--
For anyone who is interested the the chemistry of HP Latex inks, here is a video that describes what happens with the HP Latex ink (at the 1 minute mark):
[video=youtube;4Eu2c6pbvTs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Eu2c6pbvTs&list=PL961oV9sNePBt5zOpX0_dqTc OeqjcI4fp[/video]
It is a completely different chemical action than solvent inks (including mild/ light/ eco solvent).
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't want to get into the whole latex outgas debate, but I can tell you why I bought an M-64.
#1 reason would be speed. I have an HP L26500, an Epson GS6000 and a Seiko W-64. The M is faster at a good sellable quality than the other 3 combined. I also like Seiko's new ink formula. Very low odor and quick dry time compared to the W with the same excellent pigment load. It doesn't have the gamut of the GS6000, but better than the L26500 and good enough for what I do.
#2 built in ionizer allows me to run styrene. I have been running .030 sheets through the W, but dealing static is a pain. Styrene runs a little better through the GS with less static issues (.020 max), but still some images like to ghost in open areas.
I bought he HP for a client that wanted to do short run fabric and wallpaper stock. Since latex ink has the necessary certification that allows the hotels and museums to feel warm and fuzzy about using murals printed on the machine. That went well until said client bought they're own machine. Since then, the HP has been the least used machine in my shop. It prints fine, but takes forever to heat up and I'm inpatient. Also, if your not johnny on the spot and send the next file when the first finishes, you wait for the machine to cool down then heat up again. Yes, setting the queue to start automatically works, but isn't good for every situation. I know use it for the sporadic wall paper or short run poster jobs. Yes, you can go direct to lamination with the HP, but I can do the same with the GS, W and M running digi-dry units. I have never had an issue with this.
I like the GS, actually this is the second one I bought. However, I needed a better pigment load for backlit applications (eco-sol black is more brown than black, the Seiko is true black). So, I got the W. The W is the most used machine in the shop and will be until I get the profiling done for the M. I currently have the HP and Epson for sale. I'll have a Seiko only shop when they're gone.
#1 reason would be speed. I have an HP L26500, an Epson GS6000 and a Seiko W-64. The M is faster at a good sellable quality than the other 3 combined. I also like Seiko's new ink formula. Very low odor and quick dry time compared to the W with the same excellent pigment load. It doesn't have the gamut of the GS6000, but better than the L26500 and good enough for what I do.
#2 built in ionizer allows me to run styrene. I have been running .030 sheets through the W, but dealing static is a pain. Styrene runs a little better through the GS with less static issues (.020 max), but still some images like to ghost in open areas.
I bought he HP for a client that wanted to do short run fabric and wallpaper stock. Since latex ink has the necessary certification that allows the hotels and museums to feel warm and fuzzy about using murals printed on the machine. That went well until said client bought they're own machine. Since then, the HP has been the least used machine in my shop. It prints fine, but takes forever to heat up and I'm inpatient. Also, if your not johnny on the spot and send the next file when the first finishes, you wait for the machine to cool down then heat up again. Yes, setting the queue to start automatically works, but isn't good for every situation. I know use it for the sporadic wall paper or short run poster jobs. Yes, you can go direct to lamination with the HP, but I can do the same with the GS, W and M running digi-dry units. I have never had an issue with this.
I like the GS, actually this is the second one I bought. However, I needed a better pigment load for backlit applications (eco-sol black is more brown than black, the Seiko is true black). So, I got the W. The W is the most used machine in the shop and will be until I get the profiling done for the M. I currently have the HP and Epson for sale. I'll have a Seiko only shop when they're gone.
danno
New Member
As for the outgassing issue, I have had the prints from our L26500 analyzed by 3M for issues with the laminate peeling and producing bubbles. The results came back the ink had not properly outgassed before lamentation. I have also consulted with HP about this and it has been confirmed.
P Wagner
--
It is possible for the ink to be incompletely dried and cured in the printer, and if laminate is applied then a failure is possible. The problem in that case is that the print environment has not been correctly tuned for the media; the print environment includes heat settings, pass counts, ink limits, inter-pass delay values etc.
When these settings are correctly tuned to the media, the ink should be fully dried and cured, allowing for finishing to occur shortly after exiting the printer.
Biker Scout
New Member
Sounds fussy... and another reason to avoid HP. They have found yet another reason to trap users into their overpriced ink with marketing hype, and big budget advertising. The disposable printhead is kinda cool. But if it were my money, I'd get a Sieko. Reason being... they've got speed and the best grayscale in the industry and black blacks. They look amazing on backlit media, short of a Durst Lambda or LightJet on Duratrans of course.
But if you want an "Eco-Green-Save-The-Planet-Ink-Solution" to push on your customers, then LED UV Cure Inks ROCK!!!
True instant dry ink, saves a ton of energy over the latex printers, because no heat is needed. No outgassing, no fumes.
LED Tech removes the need for Mercury Vapor in the bulbs, LED lasts upwards of 10,000 hours before needing replacement.
But if you want an "Eco-Green-Save-The-Planet-Ink-Solution" to push on your customers, then LED UV Cure Inks ROCK!!!
True instant dry ink, saves a ton of energy over the latex printers, because no heat is needed. No outgassing, no fumes.
LED Tech removes the need for Mercury Vapor in the bulbs, LED lasts upwards of 10,000 hours before needing replacement.
ProColorGraphics
New Member
Sounds fussy... and another reason to avoid HP. They have found yet another reason to trap users into their overpriced ink with marketing hype, and big budget advertising. The disposable printhead is kinda cool. But if it were my money, I'd get a Sieko. Reason being... they've got speed and the best grayscale in the industry and black blacks. They look amazing on backlit media, short of a Durst Lambda or LightJet on Duratrans of course.
But if you want an "Eco-Green-Save-The-Planet-Ink-Solution" to push on your customers, then LED UV Cure Inks ROCK!!!
True instant dry ink, saves a ton of energy over the latex printers, because no heat is needed. No outgassing, no fumes.
LED Tech removes the need for Mercury Vapor in the bulbs, LED lasts upwards of 10,000 hours before needing replacement.
I don't get the "overpriced ink" remark. I pay less for a 775ml HP ink cartridge than I did for a 440ml Roland cartridge. I haven't had any issues with my HP latex printers that weren't attributed to user error.
The new M series does look nice, but at 3 times the cost of the HP, it better. :Big Laugh
Biker Scout
New Member
Cartridge Ink... well of course! It's more expensive than gasoline. It's the liquid gold that a printer manufacturer relies on for steady revenue between printer sales. Real industrial printers have always used bulk ink. I really got soured about the mid-level industry treatment of it's customers with the inclusion of ink chip handcuffing. But once you can afford a real printer over $100k the ink is no longer a commodity and essentially "jailbroken" at that level.
HP has ruined nearly every innovation they've bought or acquired from smaller high tech firms. However, from the smaller company's perspective, I can see the advantages of being acquired by a global platform... if all I cared about was money. Maybe I can get HP to buy me out. HAHA! :ROFLMAO:
HP has ruined nearly every innovation they've bought or acquired from smaller high tech firms. However, from the smaller company's perspective, I can see the advantages of being acquired by a global platform... if all I cared about was money. Maybe I can get HP to buy me out. HAHA! :ROFLMAO:
premiercolour
Merchant Member
We soon will carry out flatbed edition M-64 with UV curable ink setup. Please send us a message if interested.
Francis
Francis