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The FONT Project

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
I did try it. It succeeded about 50% of the time.

Pretty good start. Stick with it and you'll get better.

If your program has SOLVED the Font identification problem, why are community forums littered with "Help me identify this font!" posts? It would seem that this problem should no longer exist.

Joe

The answer is a long list. It starts with those who don't know they need a font identified and includes those who don't want to pay and those who would rather have someone else put in the time and effort it takes to even get good results using the program. It is a solution but not a total one. It has not SOLVED the problem but then neither would you have any large success in getting humanity involved either.

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The Hobbyist

New Member
I did try it. It succeeded about 50% of the time.

Pretty good start. Stick with it and you'll get better.

If your program has SOLVED the Font identification problem, why are community forums littered with "Help me identify this font!" posts? It would seem that this problem should no longer exist.

Joe

The answer is a long list. It starts with those who don't know they need a font identified and includes those who don't want to pay and those who would rather have someone else put in the time and effort it takes to even get good results using the program. It is a solution but not a total one. It has not SOLVED the problem but then neither would you have any large success in getting humanity involved either.

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Well, there is certainly no shortage of people who are quick to tell me it cannot be done. That is for sure.

Do you know the story of the start of Federal Express?

Joe


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GAC05

Quit buggin' me
There is a coven of Font Druids that post here when people need help with fonts. In the days when the earth was young, they were many. Now, in this time of change their numbers dwindle but the remaining masters hold onto their skills and serve the kingdom well with their knowledge.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
The Hobbyist said:
The task of digitizing ALL of these public records is nothing less than monumental. However, we have a small army of volunteers who patiently and painstakingly go through each book, crisp, aged brown page by crisp, aged brown page, to manually enter the DATA into a computer.

There is far more motivation for residents of a town to enter data from old analog records into digital form than get a bunch of random people to agree to build a fonts database. This is basically a very apples to oranges comparison. Throwing up other examples (FedEX history, Lotto operations, etc) is also pointless.

The Hobbyist said:
Yes, there are a LOT of fonts, but there are also tens of millions of people in America who are savvy with computers.

You complain about "commie-fornia" but float that kind of Marxist-sounding idea? Dude, you are dreaming of perfect Utopia if you think you could convince even a tiny fraction of the American public to voluntarily put man-hours of work into building some kind of fonts database. Most Americans couldn't care less about fonts. Hell, many people doing sign design work don't care about fonts. Just look at all the default squeezed and stretched Arial on so many signs, banners, vehicles, windows, etc.

The Hobbyist said:
I agree that CURRENTLY, computers have trouble with raster images, and deciding what is "black" and what is "white" when trying to see the edge of a fuzzy letter. Better CODING would resolve that issue.

There is a lot of things computers just cannot figure out. For instance consider a center line effect on lettering. Computers don't know how to create such an effect in an automatic way. The same goes for a proper "prismatic" chisel effect. There has never ever been a graphics program that has been able to do it correctly. When the inline goes far enough to the center of the letter stroke the joins of the letter blow the computer application's mind. It doesn't know what to do. Any proper looking centerline or prismatic/chiseled effect has to be built manually using subjective human judgment.

This "Font Project" idea sounds like a bad pitch from the TV show Shark Tank. What exactly are YOU bringing to the project, other than something that happens to not be a new idea? What expertise do you have in graphic design, typeface design, sign design or any other niche in the visual arts industry? You're apparently a new member of this forum yet you are talking down to me and several other people in this thread as if we don't know what we're talking about. Some of us here have been in the game a long time and know the realities of dealing with type.
 

SignosaurusRex

Active Member
Just to bring you up to date ... In 1988, with the cooperation of most of the type foundries, my company brought a program to market named FontFinder for the purpose you suggest. It worked just fine and we advertised it at trade shows and in various trade magazines. Sign people in general shrugged and said "so what". The only folks who recognized its value were the professional document examiners and law enforcement. We sold licenses to the FBI, the Secret Service and lots of police departments. But sign people, printers and graphic artists sat by and watched.


FontFinder was eventually discontinued and a couple of others have found their way to market.
The current program of choice is Find My Font.
As the owner and manager of Signs 101 for 14 years, I received many complaints from members about the lack of a need to have font identification at Signs 101. I disagreed and to this day you can upload a type sample and get it Identified in short order.


There is no need to develop a new way to identify fonts.

I will add to this, that in order for an on-line font identification program to correctly I.D. a font, that particular program needs to either possess the fonts or have an access agreement in place with the font producer/designer or authorized distributor. Without that, the particular font identification may not be available. Considering that there are literally thousands of "font designers" flooding the market now days, without those necessary contacts and/or agreements in place, how can any one program capture the "Font Identification" market. Now... add the factor of of Font vs. Typeface vs. Letter Styles... let alone the human "eye" ,etc, :eek: That concept itself is a whole other can of worms. To the O.P., If you think you have a better plan.... get after it my friend, join the ocean of bigger whales. "Nothing gambled is nothing gained". Best of luck to you... count me OUT.
 
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MikePatterson

Head bathroom cleaner.
IMO if I can get 50 to 75% there with current software then I'm good. I'm a sign craftsman and make my living that way.

With enough time and money thrown at a problem you can find a solution. Is the current software "end all be all" NO not in the least. Should the OP pursue this? If he wants to make a better mousetrap then by all means, but dont get bent when people are happy with the current mousetrap and don't want to devote time to a his project. Could you crowd source the data entry, of course but not many people want to work much less work for free. Is the OP proposing a ground floor opportunity to be a stake holding partner in a new software venture? Or just wanting charity with no benefit or ROI of the donating partners?

OP you should devote a good portion of your time, money, and energy in pursuing this if it means this much to you.


Just look at all the default squeezed and stretched Arial on so many signs, banners, vehicles, windows, etc.

And Arial is just a copy of Helvetica with a few changes. Back in the day you had to buy fonts. My Gerber 4B had font modules. Now I have close to 20,000 on file and i would guess 40% of them are a slightly changed form of one another.

PS.
I have font development software and its a bitch to build a completely new font. More goes into it than just the alphabet. There is Kerning, Line spacing, Alternate Characters, and a whole metric shit ton of variables that have to be set before you compile it into a TTF.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
MikePatterson said:
And Arial is just a copy of Helvetica with a few changes. Back in the day you had to buy fonts. My Gerber 4B had font modules. Now I have close to 20,000 on file and i would guess 40% of them are a slightly changed form of one another.

My shop had a Signmaker 4B when I first started there. It had about a dozen or so different plug-in font modules. We had it hooked up where it could run passively, driven by a MS-DOS version of CASmate. Those were some quaint times back then.

Arial is actually an ugly-looking hodge-podge of multiple sans typefaces, with the metrics of Helvetica. Microsoft commissioned Monotype to create Arial because they didn't want to pay what Linotype wanted in order to license Helvetica.

MikePatterson said:
I have font development software and its a bitch to build a completely new font. More goes into it than just the alphabet. There is Kerning, Line spacing, Alternate Characters, and a whole metric **** ton of variables that have to be set before you compile it into a TTF.

The standards bar in type design is so much higher today than it was in the past. New commercially sold typefaces are expected to cover multiple alphabets and a slew of extended OpenType features (alternate characters, true small capitals, ligatures, etc). The package has to offer more than just 4 basic styles. It's common for a newly released type family to contain several dozen font files. Authoring those fonts is indeed a bitch. The designer has to draw out those letterforms both fast and precise. Plus it also helps to be a master at Python. The OpenType Variable and OpenType SVG formats have raised the bar yet again.

With that in mind I personally don't have any problem blowing money on good quality fonts.
 

The Hobbyist

New Member
There is far more motivation for residents of a town to enter data from old analog records into digital form than get a bunch of random people to agree to build a fonts database. This is basically a very apples to oranges comparison. Throwing up other examples (FedEX history, Lotto operations, etc) is also pointless.

That is your opinion. FedEx would not exist, except for the FACT that the professor in the college business class told a student, "This idea will NEVER work!" and he wrote a big, fat red F across the paper. To prove the professor wrong, he went out and DID IT. That is why FedEx exists. The LOTTO computers deal with trillions of bits of DATA, and they handle it, so why is this project such a bad idea? Because YOU won't make any money at it?
You complain about "commie-fornia" but float that kind of Marxist-sounding idea? Dude, you are dreaming of perfect Utopia if you think you could convince even a tiny fraction of the American public to voluntarily put man-hours of work into building some kind of fonts database.
I wonder what people like YOU said to the people who came up with the Make-A Wish foundation, or the GoFundMe website, or the GiveSendGo website? Certainly there were cynics who royally proclaimed, "THAT WILL NEVER WORK!"

Most Americans couldn't care less about fonts. Hell, many people doing sign design work don't care about fonts. Just look at all the default squeezed and stretched Arial on so many signs, banners, vehicles, windows, etc.
"This is basically a very apples to oranges comparison."

People creating garage sale signs from scratch are far removed from people who need to MATCH fonts for various reasons.

There is a lot of things computers just cannot figure out. For instance consider a center line effect on lettering. Computers don't know how to create such an effect in an automatic way. The same goes for a proper "prismatic" chisel effect. There has never ever been a graphics program that has been able to do it correctly. When the inline goes far enough to the center of the letter stroke the joins of the letter blow the computer application's mind. It doesn't know what to do. Any proper looking centerline or prismatic/chiseled effect has to be built manually using subjective human judgment.


This "Font Project" idea sounds like a bad pitch from the TV show Shark Tank. What exactly are YOU bringing to the project, other than something that happens to not be a new idea?
I never said it was a new idea. I said it needs to be approached from a different angle, if the problem is to be solved.

What expertise do you have in graphic design, typeface design, sign design or any other niche in the visual arts industry?
Well, I admit that I certainly do not possess the level of expertise and professionalism required to post a photo of a boot stepping on dog crap.

You're apparently a new member of this forum yet you are talking down to me and several other people in this thread as if we don't know what we're talking about. Some of us here have been in the game a long time and know the realities of dealing with type.
I am not talking down to anyone. However, I do not purport to speak for everyone, as some people do. There are a lot of BORED young people with computers. A project that would finally solve the "What Font Is This" battle would go a long way toward helping everyone. There could even be some sort of incentive to attract people to the project.

It is clearly evident that this covid hoax has ignited the short fuses of so many, and there is a lot of pent up anger out there. I see it in saliva-slinging posts every single day.

As to what a computer can figure out, a computer cannot think. The coding determines what a computer can do. So we need better coding. We need to find some talented coders who CAN teach a computer to properly chisel lettering, and so forth. To say a computer cannot do a task while not giving it the instructions to DO the task is silly. With the right coding, this is all possible.

What is "Marxist" about wanting to solve a problem that has NOT been solved, despite the claims of some? If it HAD been solved, we would not see endless "What FONT is this?" posts. A simple well-coded utility on every PC could immediately identify any font. Unfortunately, I did not pursue computer programming during the Windows vs MAC battles of the 1980s.

Joe



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Humble PM

Mostly tolerates architects
While I think it would be a lovely idea to ahave a findmethisfont, I think the global target market is rather too small for the coding and support investment required. A bar code reader (such as on a lottery ticket machine) is one thing (and boy is there a lot of money to be made from that business), but realistically, what proportion of the worlds population would ever need to identify a specific font, and be prepared to hand over real money for it?
Buying a pack of Wrigleys at 08:01 (Wrigleys sell quite a lot of products) using a UPC is one thing. Charecterising and recording each and every new and evolving font, in each and every language, just for the hell of it is another.

Go Fund Me was set up as a for profit by experienced fintech people. Guess they saw there might be money in that there project. Bored young people, instagram, tiktok, games and pr0n
 

Stacey K

I like making signs
I never have that hard of a time finding a font - or one that's close.

The biggest issue is finding the fonts that are mixed with 2 fonts or fonts that have edges cut off or poor copy or scrolly do-dads added. Those are customized specifically for the customers logo so the logo is different from everyone else's. I do this very, very often so when a customer calls me and asks me what font I used for their logo - you won't find it, it's customized just for you. I can offer the font I started with but it's not going to be the same as the one you see on the logo.
 
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