• I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...

The joys of offering a first Proof . No Charge. Need to rethink. I think

MP Custom

MP Custom

New Member
I asked a client for some direction on the signage he wanted.
This is sooooo Helpful.
*Sigh*
 

Attachments

  • _063604684.jpg
    _063604684.jpg
    1,003.7 KB · Views: 413
U

unclebun

Active Member
I think using that piece of paper means he wants you to digitally print a very busy and complicated background of diamond plate, flames, and brushed metal so that none of the text can be read because of poor contrast.
 
Geneva Olson

Geneva Olson

Expert Storyteller
When customers come into our shop (and we encourage them to), we sit behind a computer and cast coreldraw onto the tv screen. We mock up a proof right in front of them. They are 100% involved in the process. Mainly because I have had more times than not someone says, "I don't care what font it is, just bold letters". And when I start projecting the fonts up on the screen, they suddenly DO CARE what the font is.

AND, we are "socially distant" to boot.
 

Attachments

  • 20210305_095531.jpg
    20210305_095531.jpg
    1.8 MB · Views: 266
J

JetPress

New Member
Geneva Olson said:
When customers come into our shop (and we encourage them to), we sit behind a computer and cast coreldraw onto the tv screen.
Click to expand...

That is a neat idea but you don't get any customers that take up a lot of your time? We wouldn't be able to do this here because we get a lot of customers that would just hang out all day asking to see the proof a hundred different ways. For the really lost customers we have a sheet of fonts they can choose from, ask them what's their favorite color and the rest is in our hands. Majority of the time it takes less of our time and they end up liking it more than they expected.
 
Boudica

Boudica

Back to "educational purposes"
I'm just always super busy... often flying solo, and constantly feeding the FB. answering the phone... someone else might walk in... they try not to take up too much of my time when they see this.
 
S

Souldar

CLGK
My personal favorite is when they tell you what it should say but to design it however you see fit because you are the expert. Then are still unhappy five revisions later because they don't like anything you show them even after they decide to give their two cents and suggest changes.
 
R

Reveal1

New Member
Geneva Olson said:
When customers come into our shop (and we encourage them to), we sit behind a computer and cast coreldraw onto the tv screen. We mock up a proof right in front of them. They are 100% involved in the process. Mainly because I have had more times than not someone says, "I don't care what font it is, just bold letters". And when I start projecting the fonts up on the screen, they suddenly DO CARE what the font is.

AND, we are "socially distant" to boot.
Click to expand...

We do the same. You didn't mention charging; we charge our hourly design rate after 5-15 minutes depending on size of job.
 
Geneva Olson

Geneva Olson

Expert Storyteller
Reveal1 said:
We do the same. You didn't mention charging; we charge our hourly design rate after 5-15 minutes depending on size of job.
Click to expand...
If it's a quick lettering job for decals on their vehicle, we don't normally charge a fee. If it's labor intensive, yes. we will charge a design fee. BUT, those are the jobs we aren't doing in front of them.
 
signbrad

signbrad

New Member
Geneva Olson said:
When customers come into our shop (and we encourage them to), we sit behind a computer and cast coreldraw onto the tv screen. We mock up a proof right in front of them. They are 100% involved in the process. Mainly because I have had more times than not someone says, "I don't care what font it is, just bold letters". And when I start projecting the fonts up on the screen, they suddenly DO CARE what the font is.
AND, we are "socially distant" to boot.
Click to expand...

I never thought I would agree with this idea. I was "old school" and had the viewpoint that a client sitting behind me was an imposition. (I was a artist, dammit, leave me alone). I have done a complete 180 in the last ten years. I now believe the above method to be an excellent and efficient way to work, and it stops cold many of the endless streams of emails/revisions that so often happens. This method does not work on all jobs, obviously. And it certainly does not work for all designers.

It requires a few things on your part—

1. You must know your software well and be able to work rapidly.
If you are very slow or not creative, or just plain mediocre as a designer, this process will be frustrating. Give up and go back to the endless email stream—or get draconian with rules on revisions and tweaks and lose a few clients in the process (maybe the ones you want to lose?).

2. You must be tactful and have the ability to teach and talk while you work.
Maybe you are not kind and tactful by nature—maybe you can't even be civil with your mate. Then this method may not work for you.

3. Don't pile yourself up with so much that you can't stop and do a layout so that you can get a client in and out the door with dispatch, deposit in hand.
This requires always trying to give yourself a little wiggle room when you promise submittals or finished jobs, or whatever—a skill that takes an effort to develop, as well as self-control. If you are always, always covered up with work, missing dealines regularly, you are probably too cheap. Of course, you could be such an amazing designer that people just can't stay away, but I doubt it. You're probably too cheap.

4. You must be well-versed in design principles and vocabulary.
If you are not familiar with basic design principles in sign layout (many sign goobers are not) or are not able to communicate ideas coherently—or if you are one of the few that does not believe in the existence of sign design principles—then this method is not for you.

At one time, I believed that you were born with design ability. I struggled for years trying to figure out what I was doing wrong—and I wasn't that smart. Once I discovered the Mike Stevens Journal, and later bought his book, Mastering Layout, everything changed. I learned design principles and their names. I went from being a struggling designer to an adequate designer overnight. I now read Mastering Layout every year. I also read other design books regularly. I keep Alex White's The Elements of Graphic Design next to my recliner and pick it up constantly. It helps that I don't own a TV. I don't put down TV as a form of entertainment and I'm not against vices in general or time-wasting activities—I love Scotch and I can easily spend an hour lying on my back staring at clouds. But I seem to have far more time to read than my colleagues. Several of them spend a couple hours every night watching TV. If I were to spend two hours every night bowling, my mate would accuse me of addiction or of secretly wanting to turn professional.

If you have never read The Elements of Graphic Design by Alex W. White, you are missing out. It is not written in one continuous stream, like a novel. It is written so that you can read any chapter by itself and benefit, well suited to today's short attention spans. I've read his chapter on negative space over and over. Get the second edition—more pictures and bigger. Or get both the first and second. The little first edition is cheap and is easy to carry on the bus or plane.

Brad in Kansas City

https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Gra...t=&hvlocphy=9023243&hvtargid=pla-453973818930
 
Geneva Olson

Geneva Olson

Expert Storyteller
signbrad said:
I never thought I would agree with this idea. I was "old school" and had the viewpoint that a client sitting behind me was an imposition. (I was a artist, dammit, leave me alone). I have done a complete 180 in the last ten years. I now believe the above method to be an excellent and efficient way to work, and it stops cold many of the endless streams of emails/revisions that so often happens. This method does not work on all jobs, obviously. And it certainly does not work for all designers.

It requires a few things on your part—

1. You must know your software well and be able to work rapidly.
If you are very slow or not creative, or just plain mediocre as a designer, this process will be frustrating. Give up and go back to the endless email stream—or get draconian with rules on revisions and tweaks and lose a few clients in the process (maybe the ones you want to lose?).

2. You must be tactful and have the ability to teach and talk while you work.
Maybe you are not kind and tactful by nature—maybe you can't even be civil with your mate. Then this method may not work for you.

3. Don't pile yourself up with so much that you can't stop and do a layout so that you can get a client in and out the door with dispatch, deposit in hand.
This requires always trying to give yourself a little wiggle room when you promise submittals or finished jobs, or whatever—a skill that takes an effort to develop, as well as self-control. If you are always, always covered up with work, missing dealines regularly, you are probably too cheap. Of course, you could be such an amazing designer that people just can't stay away, but I doubt it. You're probably too cheap.

4. You must be well-versed in design principles and vocabulary.
If you are not familiar with basic design principles in sign layout (many sign goobers are not) or are not able to communicate ideas coherently—or if you are one of the few that does not believe in the existence of sign design principles—then this method is not for you.

At one time, I believed that you were born with design ability. I struggled for years trying to figure out what I was doing wrong—and I wasn't that smart. Once I discovered the Mike Stevens Journal, and later bought his book, Mastering Layout, everything changed. I learned design principles and their names. I went from being a struggling designer to an adequate designer overnight. I now read Mastering Layout every year. I also read other design books regularly. I keep Alex White's The Elements of Graphic Design next to my recliner and pick it up constantly. It helps that I don't own a TV. I don't put down TV as a form of entertainment and I'm not against vices in general or time-wasting activities—I love Scotch and I can easily spend an hour lying on my back staring at clouds. But I seem to have far more time to read than my colleagues. Several of them spend a couple hours every night watching TV. If I were to spend two hours every night bowling, my mate would accuse me of addiction or of secretly wanting to turn professional.

If you have never read The Elements of Graphic Design by Alex W. White, you are missing out. It is not written in one continuous stream, like a novel. It is written so that you can read any chapter by itself and benefit, well suited to today's short attention spans. I've read his chapter on negative space over and over. Get the second edition—more pictures and bigger. Or get both the first and second. The little first edition is cheap and is easy to carry on the bus or plane.

Brad in Kansas City

https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Gra...t=&hvlocphy=9023243&hvtargid=pla-453973818930
Click to expand...
I was a middle school math and history teacher before this gig. I was a teacher back in the day when I was on an overhead doing math problems and asking questions as I went. So, this is really second nature to me. It took me a while to learn the software and how it works. But that's another aspect of teaching that I was able to glean for this business. But the good news is that my partner is very well versed and his desk is the one that sits up front with the customers. The reasons you mentioned above are exactly what we do. We will design something very quickly not worrying about what it looks like in wireframe because we can take care of that behind the scenes.

and people LOVE it. They are able to walk away knowing that they will get what they wanted. I did have ONE customer who called and changed an idea....and believe it or not, it was for the better. It was one change and we sent her the proof afterward. But they had already paid the deposit so they were committed.
 
MikePro

MikePro

New Member
i feel like ALL first-draft's should be done this way, and then an actual 1st layout provided after downpayment to cover design costs if tire-kickers take your quote down the street.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top