The open discussion of pricing

[AUTO-FX]

Can we come to a general consensus regarding the open discussion of pricing on Signs101 ? Does this make sense to try to limit the topic of pricing and our pricing formulas to the premium section? Are we hurting our industry making info like this available to the google machine?

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

I for one would rather see pricing in the premium section.

When in the open forum I rather see general formulas or how to's make a formula.

 

[Rick]

No...
No...
No...

If anything, let's keep all the topics in the premium section so people don't find out this business is easy money.

If you don't want it read, you have a choice. It can also have a positive effect.

 

[SignManiac]

You charge what you want to, I'll charge what I want to. There it's done. Free enterprise, you will never see a general consensus in this industry.

 

[shakey0818]

I totally agree with sign maniac.people make a big deal of pricing on here.i think its verry helpful,not in the sense of getting a price but to make yourself feel confident on your pricing and charge what you want to make a good living.providing you provide a great product,design,back up your work and treat the customer like gold.there could be 100 shops arround but if you make the cust feel like they need you not you need them and that you will do anything to make them happy you will never need to ask how to prict a job.youll just have to ask where can i buy a money counting machins.

 

[prototype66]

good advice for sure! Wine and dine them and give them the best quality and service and they will know it!

 

[AUTO-FX]

No, No, No, i'm not saying you cant discuss pricing at all. i'm saying IT SHOULD BE KEPT PRIVATE AMONGST OURSELVES. And by keeping it in the premium section, it will not be available to read via a google search.

 

[HaroldDesign]

Moot point.
From what I understand, information provided within the premium section is not available to view without being part of the paid subscription. Am I wrong?

 

[Fred Weiss]

Entries in the premium forums do not show up in Google searches.

As to the original point ... consider

Only accepted members of Signs 101 can see the open forums pricing forum. Try logging out and see if you can find it.

At any given time less than 10% of our "active members" are premium subscribers. Therefore, 90% are not. Part of the reason for pricing discussions is to demonstrate to all members, especially those in the early stages of their careers, what goes into proper pricing. So the question becomes, do you want to exclude 90% from possibly picking up that bit of information that might make them a better member of your business community?

 

[Fitch]

Insurances, rent, materials "specials", labour rates, desired income, vehicle costs, machinery costs and upgrades, "stuff ups", advertising, utilities, and specialisation all play a part in the cost of any product generated.

Price securement relates to all of the above and especially the buyer, their attitude and intent to pay either a premium or a discount for the end result.

There is NO pricing formula, as no two business operate under the same conditions.

Charge what materials costs, plus overheads, plus wages, plus retained profits and there is the cost of your sign.

There are no percentages, no secret formulas, no magic button.

At the end of the day it comes down to $$$$ and how much after each year of operating you have left for one person and one person only - YOU - and those relient upon you.

Simple.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Insurances, rent, materials "specials", labour rates, desired income, vehicle costs, machinery costs and upgrades, "stuff ups", advertising, utilities, and specialisation all play a part in the cost of any product generated.

Price securement relates to all of the above and especially the buyer, their attitude and intent to pay either a premium or a discount for the end result.

There is NO pricing formula, as no two business operate under the same conditions.

Charge what materials costs, plus overheads, plus wages, plus retained profits and there is the cost of your sign.

There are no percentages, no secret formulas, no magic button.

At the end of the day it comes down to $$$$ and how much after each year of operating you have left for one person and one person only - YOU - and those relient upon you.

Simple.

The thread is about where pricing discussions should take place. It isn't about anyone's theory of pricing (or lack thereof).

 

[Fitch]

My apologies... feel free to delete. But with respect there were three other comments similar to mine. No idea why only one was singled out???

Is one to read between the lines "It isn't about anyone's theory of pricing (or lack thereof). that possibly I may be on the wrong track in my "theories"?

Cheers

 

[iSign]

Fitch, you comments are quite correct, and I'm sure (though it's not my place to say so) that you are not being singled out... and I'm certain the "or lack thereof" had nothing to do with your post... you clearly stated one of the most fundamental truths about this topic..

but I'd bet Fred's reply has more to do with the fact that this tiresome thread topic is probably in the top 5 recurring nightmare topics under Mac vs. PC, and Paint VS. Vinyl...

to Auto FX... you get a pass, because you are still somewhat new here... but this topic has been hashed to death dozens of times (search "business model" under Fred's threads) ... if anything on the internet can be counted on, it's anarchy..


..so to answer ANY question on the internet, starting with "can we come to a consensus?" HELL NOOOO... YOU GOTTA BE KIDDING??? Maybe a locked down group of one dozen people could work a miracle & reach consensus.. and with total lock-down conditions preventing any new players... MAYBE that consensus could last a short while

 

[Fred Weiss]

My apologies... feel free to delete. But with respect there were three other comments similar to mine. No idea why only one was singled out???

Is one to read between the lines "It isn't about anyone's theory of pricing (or lack thereof). that possibly I may be on the wrong track in my "theories"?

Cheers

iSign pretty much nailed it. If there's anything I've learned in running Signs 101 it's that no matter how often or how well you make information available or discuss it or advertise it ... it will come up again like a whole new deal. No singling out intended. Your post just happened to to be the most recent one that was off the topic of the thread.

As to the lack of a theory of pricing ... sorry Mate but that's how I read what you posted. I don't agree with it although I understand your position. Most shops I know work hard to make their pricing follow some sort of guidelines so that 1) anyone quoting a job might have a good chance of arriving at the same quote and 2) the prices being quoted are both competitive and meet the profit goals of the business.

 

[iSign]

As to the lack of a theory of pricing ... sorry Mate but that's how I read what you posted...

... Most shops I know work hard to make their pricing follow some sort of guidelines...

I read it to mean there is no one formula that one member here can give all the other members.. not to mean nobody can get a working formula for themselves...

There is NO pricing formula, as no two business operate under the same conditions.

 

[Fred Weiss]

I read it to mean there is no one formula that one member here can give all the other members.. not to mean nobody can get a working formula for themselves...

Of course there is, but it involves determining first what the differences, expenses and income requirements are for your business. That's what defining your shop rate is about. Once that has been done then the balance can be reduced to formulas if so desired.

To the best of my knowledge, that's how all the estimating applications, shop management applications and pricing guides work. And I think a review of my posts on the subject will bear out that I have always maintained it as a basic requirement as well.

So!

 

[iSign]

So!

no, I must concede that you are absolutely correct, not that i didn't already share that view... but I find it humorous how much this topic, or where my point, is not quite aligning with yours is quite closely related to a post i just wrote in the "scheduling, organizing" thread.. where i said... I'm just here to goof off tonight, not to "work" on sharing meaningful tips of the trade.. and suggested that the search feature might be useful to consider at times, for that reason... anyway the similarity I'm referring to is that you have always been very cognizant of the "teach a man to fish" theory, and as noted, I could look through many old posts & find you explaining how anyone could begin the hard work of gathering the needed data & starting to arrive at a "shop rate"... where a lot of us who know that information, will read a post from someone who needs that information... and instead of teaching them how to arrive at their own formula, sometimes we will just say what I think Fitch was trying to say here (& I was saying on that other thread)... I can't give you a formula, YOU have to give yourself a formula... which is true to a point.. but on a good day, a generous member will actually take the time to give the skills to make your own formula... which brings me back to the search button... we can't all be generous all the time.. but thank god for search

 

[GypsyGraphics]

sure let's talk money....
premium membership is $50. how serious are you about your business if your not willing to invest $50 a year for the premiere 24/7 resource in your industry? and do you really want to take financial advice from those who couldn't muster up $50 themselves?

 

[AUTO-FX]

At any given time less than 10% of our "active members" are premium subscribers. Therefore, 90% are not. Part of the reason for pricing discussions is to demonstrate to all members, especially those in the early stages of their careers, what goes into proper pricing. So the question becomes, do you want to exclude 90% from possibly picking up that bit of information that might make them a better member of your business community?

Good point Fred, i hadnt considered that viewpoint. I guess that's what Rick Circle was pointing at.

GG , I have to agree with that line of thinking, and the 50 is a write off as a business expense anyway, but fred still has a good point.

Anyway, this thread topic wasnt about formulas or HOW you arrive at pricing , just where you do it. Skyhigh had his thread yesterday " HVAC and SIGNS " and if anyone read it, you had to be struck by the "we must be idiots" comment coming from the HVAC thread administrators. I know I was.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Good point Fred, i hadnt considered that viewpoint. I guess that's what Rick Circle was pointing at.

GG , I have to agree with that line of thinking, and the 50 is a write off as a business expense anyway, but fred still has a good point.

Anyway, this thread topic wasnt about formulas or HOW you arrive at pricing , just where you do it. Skyhigh had his thread yesterday " HVAC and SIGNS " and if anyone read it, you had to be struck by the "we must be idiots" comment coming from the HVAC thread administrators. I know I was.

Let me tell you a true tale that illustrates why I believe price discussions are a good thing.

Back in the mid 1980's, we were running three Gerber IV-Bs and operating as a wholesale letter service. We had captured about 85% to 90% of the local market and were doing very well. In the door one morning walked an old sign painter named Gil.

Gil was pretty well known for his ability to put up a 4 x 8 from scratch and paint it in just under a day's time. His rate was $100 for this including the materials ... so he cleared about $60 for a day's work. He always thought this was just fine since it made him enough to pay for his motel room, dinner and a few drinks that evening.

That morning, however, Gil had a problem. A regular customer had asked him to letter two doors of a semi tractor. The job called for the font Murray Hill Bold and some graphics that were beyond Gil's abilities to do in paint. So he came to me for a quote.

The quote came out to $75.00 for the cut vinyl. Gil's eyes got wide and he said, "Hell, that's about what I figured to sell the job for. What do you think I should quote him?"

I replied, "Quote him the materials doubled plus your time to do the job including your time here and with him at your shop rate."

"My what?, he asked. "What's a shop rate?"

I explained what a shop rate was and gave a range that most area shops were charging of $30.00 to $35.00. He decided that $30.00 was his preference. Next we figured out the estimated time he would have in the job to complete it at four hours including his sales time and time coming in to order and pickup from me.

His quote worked out to:

$75.00 materials x 2 = $150.00
4 hours @ $30.00 = $120.00

Total for the job = $270.00

Old Gil was in shock. He didn't see how the job was worth that. I suggested to him that he put the job at risk by quoting the $270.00 and he reluctantly agreed to do so.

The next morning, Gil was back in disbelief. The customer has accepted the quote and had cut him a check for the whole $270.00 on the spot. He ordered, picked up and completed the job.

Gil went on to become a regular customer. About six months after our first meeting, he gifted me with a beautiful framed apple crate label and thanked me for the advice and information I had supplied to him. In the years that followed, Gil prospered. He rented a place for his shop, hired employees, and even bought a home.

I happen to believe that most people who under price their work do so because they don't know any better. That if you demonstrate to them they can and should be getting better paid for their work, they will choose to follow that path. It's simply in their best interests.