To share or not to share? customer logo

[signpro]

A customer from out of town just emailed me asking for the original artwork from a job i did for them last fall. they said they are placing another custom order with a different vendor, and are requesting original AI, EPS or outline files. I can only assume with such specific requests, it is another sign shop. so far, this was the only project we did for them. I'm sure I can make whatever it is they are in need of, and the last project i did for them came with great praise from a few people. even the one emailing asking for this artwork mentioned how good the last one turned out.

I was paid to recreate their logo. I was given a sewn patch, and asked to recreate it with a few changes as specified.

Any thoughts on what to do or how to answer? On our invoice, we have "all designs are property of Sign Pro". but since it was a recreation, does that fall into this category?? even though we made specific changes??

any opinions are great. Or should i just ask if this is another sign/graphics project that we can help with??

Thanks in advance. It's been a trying day so far, and this kinda irked me as well! I'm not a fan of giving out logos so other companies can use them.

Thanks
Kurt

 

[Billct2]

Yes your file is your property.
How you want to handle it from there is up to you.

 

[WrapperX]

I would find out why they have decided to go with another company and if there was ANYTHING that you could do to keep their business.

The issue of a recreation is tricky since you didn't really create it. Did you charge them specifically for the recreation/vectorization or was that something you did as part of the original job? I guess what I'm asking was it billed as a seperate invoice item or line item or was it wrapped up together with the overall price of said previous job?

it might not even matter since, like you said, you didn't design it. You just made it useable from something unuseable. I would probably focus on why they are working with a new company.

 

[signpro]

probably working with a new company becuase they are 2hours away from me (remember, they are from out of town), but either way, if it's graphics/decals or small signage, the UPS man is always around the corner.

Yes, i recreated it, but that recreation is MINE, they still have their original sewn patch to give the new guy. i'm not claiming to own their logo, just my files... right?

I'd have to dig up the invoice, but i'm pretty sure it was on it's own line for billing. i usually do it that way whens it's more than a basic text/shape layout. which this was.

I think i'll just ask if i can help them out with new graphics or signage, and see what response spawns from that. without yet mentioning that i own the file.

Any other ideas, please continue share. Thanks again guys

 

[WrapperX]

I find that, unless explicitly explained, customers think that when they see a design fee for a logo or whatever that they have paid for that logo and are therefore free to go ahead and use that. It seems like this topic comes up more often then it should. And I can feel for them, what are they paying for if not the ownership of that image. After all, the signs they ordered are on the invoice, they own those right?

Now don't get me wrong, they are mistaken, but it seems like we in the sign industry need to start better informing our customer base that the charges for design or not for the ownership of said design so much as it is to pay for the time it takes them to create, fix, or recreate from original file. It's one of those things thats kinda a gray area of this business. We want to help the customers with whatever they want. But we also don't want them to be able to just go out and go the next signshop after we did the design work and whatever previous work is done. The ownership of that design is like our trap to keep our customers coming back to us because its cheaper then them having to pay an exuberant ART Ownership charge to take the file anywhere they choose. Muddy waters for sure.

 

[iSign]

probably working with a new company becuase they are 2hours away from me (remember, they are from out of town), but either way, if it's graphics/decals or small signage, the UPS man is always around the corner.

Yes, i recreated it, but that recreation is MINE, they still have their original sewn patch to give the new guy. i'm not claiming to own their logo, just my files... right?

I'd have to dig up the invoice, but i'm pretty sure it was on it's own line for billing. i usually do it that way whens it's more than a basic text/shape layout. which this was.

I think i'll just ask if i can help them out with new graphics or signage, and see what response spawns from that. without yet mentioning that i own the file.

Any other ideas, please continue share. Thanks again guys

I agree that the recreation files are YOURS!

I also agree that most clients don't understand that, and unless it is explained up front, they can feel bad about it if they find it out when they need it.

On the topic of ownership & rights to replicate a design... well that is irrelevant here, but that one seems to bother clients even more... if you make THEIR name look cool on a job, even without the native files being supplied, they often don't really have the right to allow anyone else to copy it... but they will never get that, and almost never honor it..

but back to your situation... here's an idea:

"oh, that old job? you mean redrawing the logo from your patch? .. why not just give them the patch, it's really easy if you know what you are doing... I don't save easy stuff like that, as i have limited space and can always bang out another one next time we're doing business... so, if you're other vendor isn't able to work from the patch, let me know if there is anything you would like me to offer a bid on, & maybe we can include a CD of the artwork next time.
thanks"​

 

[Heis3335]

I think it would be fair to charge them to burn Their logo to a disk for them, as you stated, it was a logo they provided you, and they supplied the changes they wanted. I would ask myself "what do I have to gain by not giving them artwork that they have already paid for?". They own the logo and changes, but not the file. If they had asked you for a copy of the file at the time of the original purchase would have given them one? If not, how much extra would you have charged to burn them a copy of the file? I am not saying one way or the other is right or wrong, just somethings to think about.
Rob

 

[Mosh]

Do like I do...send them the SignLab file...if they can't open it that is their problem....
I do this for PITA customers, I tell them that is the file I use and I have no way to
convert it.

 

[J Hill Designs]

send an eps but rename it to .fuq

 

[paul luszcz]

You said you were paid to recreate the logo. Why do you own the result? This is very different from simply doing it as part of another job or worse, doing it for free.

You're right to ask if there is anything you can do for them, but don't expect them to work with you because you won't give them a copy of their artwork. That would just irritate me and I expect, them.

 

[iSign]

You said you were paid to recreate the logo. Why do you own the result? This is very different from simply doing it as part of another job or worse, doing it for free.

You're right to ask if there is anything you can do for them, but don't expect them to work with you because you won't give them a copy of their artwork. That would just irritate me and I expect, them.

I wanted to address a distinction in my mind, between two scenarios... I didn't go back and re-read the OP's wording, but from my own experiences, I get clients coming in wanting a sign. They are not asking for digital design services, or CD's of their re-created logo... they are asking for a sign.. I might say the sign is $400 with proper digital art provided. Then they say 'this patch is all I have" ...at which point I tell them the sign will be $500, because of extra design work required..

some times I might dangle the promise of a CD to make the design fee more palatable... sometimes I won't think of it, or mention it... and sometimes i know damn well that I wouldn't do that amount of work for $100 if they weren't buying a sign, but I will to get a $500 order.. and I know in these instances that the file will not leave the building. if they don't ask, I don't always mention it... because they never came in asking for a CD of their logo anyway...

So, the other scenario is someone saying "how much to redraw my logo from this patch?" ..then they get the file...

 

[weaselboogie]

Supply them with a 1200 DPI scan of their patch.

 

[iSign]

I was paid to recreate their logo. I was given a sewn patch, and asked to recreate it with a few changes as specified.

ok, read it a little quick the first time... missed the "changes" part.. and this wording DOES imply that the "recreation" was a distinct part of the job they requested, in ADDITION to the sign work you did...

I have several experiences with the OTHER scenario where the client just wanted the sign done... and I charged a "design" fee, for my labor... but not for a CD, and unlimited rights to reproduce my design work (even if it was their image)

 

[mikefine]

Tell them you need to know why they need the file, so that you can provide in the appropriate format.

(You mention it is for a custom job, so chances are it is something you may not even do.)

Then tell them you will take care of it, no problem, but there is
a "file transfer fee." That is for filing, archiving, and retrieving file.
I would charge no less than $50.00 for that service and your company's time
to do that.

 

[signpro]

Thanks WrapperX and iSign.

I like your idea about telling them i don't keep files, but i always tell my customers i keep their files for their next job, and that design fee is a one time thing (and this wasn't too simple either)


anyways, just got this back from her... (the "customer" is the County Office, about 2hrs north of me)
The logo is being used for dump usage stickers to be sold to residents
and affixed to garbage bags. The Board agreed to the costs as
submitted by Uline. Our first order was for 6000 labels but most
quantities would be closer to 20,000 at a time in sheets of 6. We are
only paying around 4 cents each for the 2-color process on fluourescent
labels.


guess i'll ask for Ulines email, and send it directly to them, to be used for this purpose only. i'm not doing them for 4cents each.

she also said: Officer Hanson stated that you agreed to release it to us. Hence my
request. Please forward at your earliest convenience.

I already sent her a decent sized JPG for the purpose of letterhead, etc. Nothing was ever said about "releasing" the files. I think a good size JPG was very nice of me, and would work fine for letterhead etc.

she did mention a new dump truck that i could put a bid in on. so i guess i don't wanna be too rude.

but honestly, she was pretty snobby about this. or so it seems to me

anyways, i think i'll ask to send it directly to Uline for this purpose only, stating that i agreed to send them files for letterhead, etc. which i already did with the JPG. and that original artwork stays with us, but i'll make an exception for Uline becuase it something i am not able to produce (the flourescants, in that quantity)

any opinions?

 

[signpro]

You said you were paid to recreate the logo. Why do you own the result? This is very different from simply doing it as part of another job or worse, doing it for free.

like someone else mentioned, i own the usable FILE, not the logo i guess. i may have worded that incorrectly. they still have the original scan of their sewn patch.

You're right to ask if there is anything you can do for them, but don't expect them to work with you because you won't give them a copy of their artwork. That would just irritate me and I expect, them.

I know, don't want to scare them away by being a jerk to deal with, i just get irritated with people demanding things and putting words into my mouth i guess.

~~~~~~~~~~

my post above this is the newest info. i do NOT do what they are using it for, but as i posted, i feel i am in the "right" to send it directly to the company doing this work, stating it is for this type of project ONLY, and the artwork is not to be shared with anyone, including customer. (again, being a jerk, but i think this is totally fair) the customer is getting what they want the logo for, these 20,000 flourescant decals that I cannot do for them.

 

[petesign]

I would tell them that all artwork over one year old is archived. In cases where it is used again in house, you waive the fee to dig and find it, load it into your computer etc. Since they need you to dig it out and send it to someone, charge them for an hours work. Beats getting nothing.

 

[iSign]

my biggest similar issue was with my County Government... and it was a $10K order... BUT, it was also an intense redraw for something they really should have had & I had struggled for years to get a good copy of, so i finally made my own... and hoped that it would bring me more business... I ended up getting contacted for that artwork from 3 or 4 different branches & finally realized i would lose more time being harassed, and having to diplomatically say no repeatedly.. so I gave up the vector files for a $50 retreival fee...

and I guess i can say i feel a sense of pride when I see MY version of the Maui County Seal taking over everything from TV ads, to public presentations... but for the first few years after that I saw my work 100 times, and never saw a penny of work... and then things changes & I've probably seen $50K in work from them in the last few years...

so, I'd say give it up, collect $50 & move on... the "good will" could easily pan out to be worth far more then you could ever collect for the design work, even if they wanted to pay again (which they don't)

 

[SignManiac]

Do like I do...send them the SignLab file...if they can't open it that is their problem....
I do this for PITA customers, I tell them that is the file I use and I have no way to
convert it.

+1 on that, only I work exclusively with SignmagicGraphix123 software...

 

[GypsyGraphics]

i think the reason this comes up so often is, in an effort to win a sign bid, people are willing to put in the extra time needed to have a good working file or at times, any file at all.

even if you don't want to scared the prospective customer off by telling them the cost of an actual logo that they will own... be very clear on your invoice that they are paying for your time, NOT THE RESULTS.

i've often thought having two line items on the invoice would be a good idea, putting a check mark and price next to the appropriate one. one line would clearly include the purchase of artwork with a cost well exceeding whatever the first line item.

i think it's important for clients to see the difference in price. maybe the extra cost isn't affordable at the time they are purchasing a sign. if they come back later asking for the file, there's no question as to what to charge... it's simply the difference in the two line items.

this can still work for you even though you didn't spell it out clearly on your invoice. tell them what the charge would have been if it stated "purchase of artwork" on their invoice.