Traffic Signs Needs

[dunemonkey]

Hi, All. Hopefully the ridiculous newbieness of my questions is OK in the newby forum. I've tried to do some search to glean basic info, but it looks like most of you all do all kinds of signs, so I found limited info on traffic control signs.

Basically, I am a traffic control planner/estimator for a traffic control company and as we do bigger and bigger jobs, it just doesn't make sense for us to have to buy signs from other company's (currently one of my competitors). I'm getting into the research of what it would entail. I know that sign making can be a massive undertaking on many levels, but since it's only a very specific set of signs I'll be making (traffic control signs from MUTCD), and only for my company's use, I'm hoping I can get it streamlined to a manageable feat.

Most of the signs I'll be making are 48" x 48", some bigger, some smaller, so we'll probably go with a 48" cutter. As with anything else, I'd like to keep costs down, so I wondererd if the affordable copam 4050 would work, or if I'd be significantly safer with the more expensive Graphtec CE5000 series. I'd mostly be cutting black vinyl letters, borders and symbols to go on top of the gnarlier diamond grade reflective sheeting, but may have to cut reflective sheeting for some as well.

Also, since we're not looking to get into the sign design business or anything, all I would really need is the MUTCD sign programming. If that is the case, what level of a program like Flexisign or Coreldraw (or whatever your favorite is) would I need in order to either have the MUTCD sign layouts or be able to add the programming "set" that would add in those layouts (I'm thinking something like the DGI programs...http://www.fhwa.org/en/products/mutcd/mutcd_intro_en.html. In other words, could I just go with Flexisign Starter (for instance) and add the DGI MUTCD stuff and have what I would need to make these signs or would I have to have Flexisign Pro (for instance).

Sorry for the newby questions, I just don't want to make purchases on the wrong stuff and be kicking myself for it later.

Any advice is appreciated.

 

[Malkin]

Welcome!

You may or may not find all of your answers here, but best of luck in any case.

:signs101:

 

[SignTech]

Hire a sign shop. They will certainly be more than glad to accommodate your needs. ALso there is wayyyyyyyy more to traffic signs then applying black vinyl to diamond grade material. But you knew that already I'm sure. Good luck.

 

[dunemonkey]

Thanks for the welcome Malkin
Also, on bit of clarification. I'm not making permanent signs for roads/highways, just the temporary stuff for temporary traffic control: mostly black letters on diamond grade reflective orange sheeting. Don't know if that makes a huge difference from an equipment/programming standpoint.

 

[dunemonkey]

yeah, I do know it takes a lot more than that, isag

I really do know how newbie I sound, and I do realize there is a lot to it, but again, I won't be making permanent signage, just for temporary traffic control. I do know the specs, and as daunting as it may be, I have to explore the option.

I do hire a sign shop for it, but unfortunately, our business is very competitive and some of my competitors make their own signs, thus reducing their cost. As I mentioned earlier, I'm currently having to buy signs from one of my traffic control company competitors. If they can reduce their costs by making their own signs, and I can't, they can bid the jobs lower, they get the job, and I don't. Believe me, I would love to just place my order and not have to worry about it, but the reality of our business is that if we want to compete, we have to cut costs. It's just something we have to do.

 

[Pat Whatley]

Not to bash you or anything but I think if you do a little research for a good, reliable supplier you're going to find the math doesn't work on making them yourself. Consider the original outlay for equipment, and space, and software, and training plus the material you're going to destroy learning to use the equipment, plus the time involved in making each sign and the figures really add up. Order the vinyl for a 48" x 48" sign from somebody and try to put it down. It's a daunting task for me and I know what I'm doing.

For the record I've been doing this 19 years, have five design stations and four plotters in the shop, a fully functioning screen print shop at my disposal....AND IT'S STILL CHEAPER FOR ME TO ORDER THEM DIRECTLY FROM MY SUPPLIER THAN I CAN MAKE THEM MYSELF FOR.

Also, and don't take this the wrong way, what you're actually doing is asking us to tell you how to take your business away from your local sign shop. Don't be offended if that's how most people here see it. I understand where you're coming from, believe me, but the knowledge you're looking for was earned the hard (and expensive) way by people who have chosen this industry as their life's profession. Giving that information away to someone taking business away from the industry is, at best, foolish.

Quit buying from your direct competitor. Portland's got 500,000 people, you've got 209 sign shops listed at Yellow Pages.com. Use your buying power to purchase the blanks and find a local shop that can letter them for you quickly. You'll come out cheaper and won't be supporting your competition.

 

[dunemonkey]

I hear you Pat

I wasn't trying to offend, and I know it's pretty silly, probably even rude of me to ask you all to help me. I almost didn't post for that very reason.

It may end up being the case that I'll conclude it's not cost effective in the end, and I'll still end up buying them from suppliers. However, on the last job I had to buy about 100 signs and that's pretty typical on big jobs. If I have my own cutter, and buy sign blanks and sheeting in bulk, it's pretty feasible that the initial investment will pay off in savings in the long run. More importantly, add that to the fact that once the previous job is over, again since it's temporary, I'll be able to use all 100 of the sign blanks with reflective sheeting from that job, remove the black lettering/symbols, and cut and reapply to make different signs for the next job. That saves thousands of dollars right there. If it weren't for the sign reuse factor, I could definitely see your point, and it might never pencil, but the ability to reuse the blanks and reflective sheeting by cutting my own new letters, arrows, etc. changes a lot.

Sorry again, if I've offended, but I'm trying to keep our business alive and well in a competitive environment, just like you guys are. I do understand why you're not to keen on the idea and see why you wouldn't want to give me advice. I know you are all very skilled professionals, and I don't expect to all the sudden do what you do, but for our limited, specific needs, and considering the economic realities. I have to explore the possibilities.

 

[Pat Whatley]

Please don't tell me you've been throwing out 100 4' x 4' diamond-grade reflective signs after every job. That would almost be worth driving all the way to Portland to pick up. You know you can still strip them and take them to somebody local for lettering. We get stuff like that all the time.

 

[signage]

If you are doing work on state and federal roadways you need to use specific fonts that are expensive!

 

[dunemonkey]

No, I do now throw away 4x4 0.80 aluminum diamond grade signs . But what I have found is that the few sign shops I've dealt with only shave a buck or two per square foot of the price of a NEW sign to reletter my old ones, when the lettering is the least expensive material on the sign. Who knows, maybe I'm just going to the wrong shops. I'll take your advice and shop around the sign shops in my area to see if I can get different pricing for relettering my signs. New research project. Who knows, maybe this has a happy ending for all.

 

[dunemonkey]

woops, 0.080

 

[dunemonkey]

jeez, woops again, "do not throw away..."

 

[Malkin]

Same here as with Pat, it is cheaper for us to have our supplier make and send us the signs than do it ourself.

But, you have raised some interesting points about re-using the signs. If you go shopping around for prices to re-letter your blanks, consider peeling and cleaning them yourself. And I mean really clean all the glue off; don't just say you will then do a half-assed job of it like my customers do. Some shops may quote high if they have to peel, cause nobody likes to do it.

 

[Rick]

Hey, I'm not offended, my cousin is a traffic engineer for a large city.

I'm not sure about the Flexi-sign compatibility with that DGI program, but it's way cheaper than the program I used that had all the letter interspacing worked out. If you are thinking about cutting diamond grade I would probably not get anything less than a T series Summa or high end Graphtec, or maybe even look at a flatbed cutter... so maybe 15-20k for everything? Since the last time I priced a roll of retro reflective is $1500+ that sorta makes the equipment/software cheap.

On another note, I thought even temp/construction signs were required to reflect using transparent black film or inks.

 

[dunemonkey]

Ouch on the Summa T-series level

Well, if I have to go that high end to do what I need to do, the initial investment would certainly be higher than I had hoped. I had hoped that at most a mid or lower level 48" Graphtec would do the trick. The bad part is that I would only have to cut retroreflective on maybe 5% or less of the signs (white on red and white on green), so it's kind of a bummer to have to go that high end for 5% of my cutting. The rest would just be lettering, symbols and border on black vinyl.

Not sure about other states, but in Oregon on temporary traffic control signs, black on orange, lettering is to be non-relfective black and every sign I've used has been flat black paint or pretty basic flat black vinyl as far as I can tell, and I haven't had problems with inspectors on either.

And yeah, the diamond grade sheeting is crazy. It's more expensive per square foot than the 0.080 diamond grade aluminum sheeting it goes on. Thus the reasoning that if I can save as many of the blanks and sheeting as I can and just have to replace lettering on cheaper black vinyl, it significantly cuts costs, whether I do it or find a sign shop to do it at a reasonable price.

On the software, I kind of pulled Flexisign out of a hat, but I do know the DGI has a Flexisign compatible version. That said, I don't know how well DGI stacks up to other MUTCD sign software programs. It's just that if I did go down this road, I wouldn't need all the capabilities you guys use/need. I would just need software that can produce lettering/symbols/borders per MUTCD spec, and that's it.

Anyway, thanks for all the input, even if the advice was simply to explore other sign shop options more thoroughly.