Tx State House Bill 1352 & Tx State Senate Bill 803

[TXFB.INS]

We got a letter today for FAST SIGNS, concerning bills TX State House Bill 1352 & TX State Senate Bill 803

basically the letters sales that in 2012 changed the law "it is illegal to sell, offer to sell, advertise, etc... electrical signs unless you or an employee is a master electrician or master sign electrician"

How accurate is the information in the letter?
What are the thoughts on these bills?

Thanks,

 

[Moze]

The information is accurate. Stings operations have been and are being conducted to catch individuals & shops who are quoting electrical sign jobs and are not/do not employ a Master Sign Electrician.

 

[Salmoneye]

Here you can't even do it as a Master Electrician, it has to be a master Sign Electrician.

 

[Hicalibersigns]

This is a subject in which I am highly interested. In what context did you receive the letter? Were you and Fast Signs bidding an electrical sign job?

 

[Hicalibersigns]

Ok, I did a bit of research. The piece of code in question is Title 8, Occupations Code, sec. 1305.160. I have posted it below. It clearly forbids anyone from selling an electric sign unless they are a Master Sign Electrician, or unless they have one employed. The two sections referred to by the OP would exempt those that would sale electric signs, but not perform the work themselves. Looks like this will become acceptable practice on Sept. 1, 2013. The proposed changes (HB 1352, and SB 803) are an addition to a long list of people exempted from the electrical licensing requirements.

Sec. 1305.160. ELECTRICAL SIGN CONTRACTOR. (a) An applicant for a license as an electrical sign contractor must:
(1) be licensed under this chapter as a master sign electrician or employ a person licensed under this chapter as a master sign electrician;
(2) establish proof of financial responsibility in the manner prescribed by the executive director; and
(3) maintain workers' compensation coverage for the contractor's employees through an insurance company authorized to engage in the business of insurance in this state or through self-insurance, or elect not to obtain workers' compensation coverage, as provided by Subchapter A, Chapter 406, Labor Code.
(b) A person who holds a master sign electrician license issued or recognized under this chapter may only be assigned to a single electrical sign contractor, unless the master sign electrician owns more than 50 percent of the electrical sign contracting business.

Here is the text of HB 1352
(24) a person who sells or offers to sell a sign that
requires electrical work or electrical sign work in connection with
the construction or installation of the sign if the person does not
perform that electrical work or electrical sign work.
SECTION 2. This Act takes effect immediately if it receives
a vote of two-thirds of all the members elected to each house, as
provided by Section 39, Article III, Texas Constitution. If this
Act does not receive the vote necessary for immediate effect, this
Act takes effect September 1, 2013.

The text of the Senate bill is identical. Both have been introduced, but no further action has been taken. If they are not brought up for a vote prior to September 1, 2013, then they will take effect by default. The TSA is a powerful lobby, as are the Electricians. They would love to have a locked up monopoly on this business. It is incumbent on us to contact our state legislators to support the passage of these two bills. I will be writing to mine this weekend. Rest assured that the electricians and the big guys will be lobbying to defeat this amendment.

 

[signs-work]

IN lausianna you have to have a sign contractor license to install any sign and any electrical signs those installers must have a masters electricians license.

 

[TXFB.INS]

This is a subject in which I am highly interested. In what context did you receive the letter? Were you and Fast Signs bidding an electrical sign job?

We may have bid on an electrical sign job against one another. that's not my area though.

the letter looked like a standard bulk form letter.

 

[TXFB.INS]

Here you can't even do it as a Master Electrician, it has to be a master Sign Electrician.

I was told a Master Electrician out weighed a Master SIGN Electrician, and could do all.

 

[TXFB.INS]

So if I understand this correctly, the sign shops whom get the signs made by other sign shops (like me) can no longer do that even if we are listed as a sub-contractor who gets a 1099?

what about the shops that outsource the production and outsource the installation of the to an electrician is that also illegal?

 

[signsolutionguy]

Hypocrisy

Amazing how a bill can pass the House of Representatives, which this did on May 10th with a vote count of 133 Yes and 7 No, and then be shot down by one individual Senator. Senator John Carona, the Chairperson of the Business and Commerce Committee made the decision to "not" bring the bill before the committee, hence, killing the bill. I'm all for strict licensing of a person or company who is building and installing electric signage. This bill was more about allowing the "sub-contracting" of signs to licensed companies by other qualified professionals. It appears that a single trade has been singled out and not allowed to sub-contract, consult or sell. Another pro business piece of legislation shot down by lobbyists with special interests. I'm assuming that they will be going after all of the Architects, Ad Agencies, Developers, etc...who sell, then sub-contract companies for electrical signage as well. Congratulations Texas Sign Association for coming closer to your monopoly.

 

[TXFB.INS]

Thanks for the update.

can't say that's what I wanted to hear but at least know what is going on.


Now the question is how many MILLIONS will be spent to investigate all the sign sellers, or at least the ones they know/find

just more hoops to jump through

 

[visual800]

. I'm assuming that they will be going after all of the Architects, Ad Agencies, Developers, etc...who sell, then sub-contract companies for electrical signage as well. Congratulations Texas Sign Association for coming closer to your monopoly.

electrical sales makes or breaks me. If this becomes an issue for me I will surely make this known, this should affect so much more than sign companies. I would love to see the smackdown put on design agencies and architects.

 

[Rick]

electrical sales makes or breaks me. If this becomes an issue for me I will surely make this known, this should affect so much more than sign companies. I would love to see the smackdown put on design agencies and architects.

The current law in Texas says that only licensed Architects and Master
Electrical or Sign Electrical can design an electrical sign. I personally
think thats ridiculous to think only those two groups are qualified to
"design" a sign.

I have had Master Electrical Sign contractors in Texas put their names on
my designs that go out to bid. They tell me my drawings are tighter than
theirs. I have no problem with paying someone to slap my design on
someone else titleblock. But this limits consumer choice, adds expense and
this is not protecting them. And there are still plenty of hack sign guys in
Texas that hold a license.

 

[John L]

This is actually great news for all of us... those that have the license, experience, and trade knowledge will gain more business and those that don't won't get electrocuted by opening the storefront door at Starbucks. Good thing just getting the license is an available option. There are similar requirements for licensure in many states on those that sell security systems, telephone systems, computer networking, etc.

 

[Craig Malmberg]

Sign Shops can sell electrical signs in Texas

Per my conversation with Larry Reichle with the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation - Compliance Division, Texas Sign Shops that are not Electrical Sign Contractors or have a master electrician on payroll can still buy and sell electrical signs.

Things that most of us know but need to be re-said:

1) When you sell an electrical sign, you can not quote or sell the installation to the customer but you can refer them to an Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician. The Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician must quote and install.
2) If you buy an electrical sign and want to pull the faces out to letter, print or overlay, an electrician or electrical sign contractor must pull the face and reinstall the face. The purpose of The Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician pulling and re-installing the faces is to provide assurance to the integrity of the electrical components of the sign.
3) You can install the frame or poll for an electrical sign but the installation of the electrical sign must be done by the Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician.
4) An electrical sign that you buy cannot be opened by you for any reason. Only the Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician can open the sign.
5) You can buy and sell complete electrical signs with no problem.

If you have any question for Larry Reichle, he can be reached at (512) 779-2857.

I hope this provides some light on the subject.

 

[Moze]

Per my conversation with Larry Reichle with the Texas Department of Licensing and Regulation - Compliance Division, Texas Sign Shops that are not Electrical Sign Contractors or have a master electrician on payroll can still buy and sell electrical signs.

Things that most of us know but need to be re-said:

1) When you sell an electrical sign, you can not quote or sell the installation to the customer but you can refer them to an Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician. The Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician must quote and install.
2) If you buy an electrical sign and want to pull the faces out to letter, print or overlay, an electrician or electrical sign contractor must pull the face and reinstall the face. The purpose of The Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician pulling and re-installing the faces is to provide assurance to the integrity of the electrical components of the sign.
3) You can install the frame or poll for an electrical sign but the installation of the electrical sign must be done by the Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician.
4) An electrical sign that you buy cannot be opened by you for any reason. Only the Electrical Sign Contractor or Electrician can open the sign.
5) You can buy and sell complete electrical signs with no problem.

If you have any question for Larry Reichle, he can be reached at (512) 779-2857.

I hope this provides some light on the subject.

Just to clarify:

Anyone in Texas can obtain an Electrical Sign Contractor License, however the person/business obtaining that license has to have a Master Sign Electrician willing to assign their license to them. They are allowed to assign their number to only one company, however he can assign his number to any company that he owns more than 50% of. The Master Sign Electrician also needs to be legally dealt with as a 'seasonal employee' (legalese I have to research further). Once a person/business has obtained their Electrical Sign Contractor License and the Master Sign Electrician has assigned his number to them, that person/business is then allowed to quote and invoice jobs. The actual work must be performed "under the supervision" of the Master Sign Electrician. He does not need to be on-site the entire time, but key elements must be performed by him (connecting electrical, inspecting final installation, etc.).

 

[Craig Malmberg]

All you state is true. For clarification also, a sign shop does not have to an Electric Sign Contractor licenses to buy and sell an electrical sign.

 

[TXFB.INS]

appreciate the update