Typesetting?

[mamos]

Exactly. We rarely run into this problem but when it does arise, a few clicks and a few bucks later and I now have that font. The internet makes it so easy to find and buy/download fonts. Build it in the job and get onto the next one.

The problem is that most of the vectorizing jobs I do come in at a lot less that the cost of buying a font I will most likely only use once.

If I am doing graphics for a vehicle or producing a sign then I do buy the font and charge the client for it because in the scheme of things the cost of the font is nothing compared to the profit from the job.

The original question was whether the practice was permitted on this site and I gather from Fred's replies that it isn't so I have my answer and I am happy.

mamos

 

[WhiskeyDreamer]

What would you do in this situation?

one of two things...have the customer supply a file (if raster, printed as is) or show the customer a very similar font that won't cost any extra


on a side, i just thought of this....what about fonts that aren't widely available? such as gerber fonts....should one be expected to buy gerber software just to use a font??

i know it's extreme, but i'm just not completely understanding this....i get that the artist wants to be compensated for what they're creating (which is strange cause there are so many others doing free fonts that don't want/need compensation).....

i guess if more designers (and i use the term loosely) were responsible for what they're creating, it would make life a lot easier....but then again, is it legal for a designer to send me a file with a font converted to curves for me to output and charge for?

 

[mamos]

Well I would be sure I have the font before saying I can do it for XX$. Worst case scenario if it IS simple artwork, use Trace in x4. What would you do in this situation?
As I mentioned this has only happened a couple of times...

If you are willing to output the kind of results you get from a trace program then go ahead.

Or for a few bucks you could get the vector doctor to produce a professionally re-drawn vector and make your output shine.

mamos

 

[RavenGraphics]

Fonts and the use of!


Vector files
are allowed if it is for the company logo (Brands)
and those that use it it for (promotion manufacturing) and profit of the 'Design Artwork'

 

[jiarby]

Here is the exact email I received in March from LHF....

If you were to contract a person to give you just the letters converted to
curves, that would be redistribution of the letters. A license user cannot
sell the letters to a third party that will then, in turn, use the letters
for a project that makes money. If this were permitted someone could buy the
font and make money off selling words converted to outlines to other
designers. It would cut us out completely and we'd be out of business.
Furthermore, that would not be fair to the artist who created the font.

The client who paid to have a logo made received an eps file with the
letters, within the design, converted to curves. They are able to take this
logo, as a whole, and use it on everything they need printed. The graphic
designer who created the logo has purchased the font and has a license to
use it in projects they design for their clients. The designer of this logo
cannot, however, sell a word converted to curves to a third party that will
then use it for a project that will make money. Again, that would cut us out
entirely.

If your client had a business card made with the letters on it then the
letters can only be used on that business card. If they want to have a
banner made then they will need to contract a designer that has purchased
the font and has a license to use it. Or buy the font themselves, convert
the word they want to use to outlines and sent it to the printer. A middle
man cannot be contracted for the letters.

Denise
------------------------------
Denise Bayers
Letterhead Fonts
http://www.letterheadfonts.com
support08@letterheadfonts.com

The logo I was asked by the little league to reproduce is shown below. I vector traced the DC, but wanted to buy the other word from someone that owns the font. This is verboten. Because I am selling a banner with the font (forgot the name) LHF is losing a sale... despite the fact that the client (& LL sponsor) already PAID the designer for the logo. SO the LL gets $300 from the sponsor, the LL buys a banner from me, LL only provides low res jpg, I request EPS, Client/Sponsor says "huh?" and sends me the low res jpg embedded in a PDF.... I sigh.


Anyway...

Whether you agree or disagree... a designer CAN set text for a client, but NOT for a client that is RESELLING it. This includes includes vectorizing the letters from a bitmap...which falls under the headling of "Creating a Derivative Work"

Fact is, if you need to type text in a font you do not own then you need to buy it. Tracing it, or getting it typeset is a cheat so you do not have to buy the font and, as Fred says, essentially stealing from the creator of the font.

You are essentially profiting on the work of someone else without compensating them.

 

[Bigdawg]

Wow. If I understand it right, you can't even reuse the logo on anything besides what you originally put it on? Screw that. I believe in artists' rights, but that's just ridiculous. I love LHF fonts, but quit using them when I found out I couldn't embed them - this just gives me even more reason not to use 'em.

 

[Service Sign Co]

Wow. If I understand it right, you can't even reuse the logo on anything besides what you originally put it on? Screw that. I believe in artists' rights, but that's just ridiculous. I love LHF fonts, but quit using them when I found out I couldn't embed them - this just gives me even more reason not to use 'em.

You did not understand it right
The designer of this logo
cannot, however, sell a word converted to curves to a third party that will
then use it for a project that will make money
I think they are more than reasonable,and should raise the price of the fonts.(of course after I buy all of them)

 

[Marlene]

sure glad I don't use LHF. they sell the font to be used to make signs, logos and what ever as what would be the sense in buying it just to have. why should they get anything money past the original sale of the font?

I am a true believer in copywrites and respect for ownership of intellectual property, but this seems to go too far.

 

[Alphonse43]

Great Thread Guys. If I wasn't sure before, I know I am cetainly not now. Very interesting reading, all points taken. Great debate,Thank you.
Alphonse43

 

[Fred Weiss]

sure glad I don't use LHF. they sell the font to be used to make signs, logos and what ever as what would be the sense in buying it just to have. why should they get anything money past the original sale of the font?

I am a true believer in copywrites and respect for ownership of intellectual property, but this seems to go too far.

LHF has always gone too far for my business sense ... so I don't buy their products. One should always be aware in licensed products covering intellectual property that they are not all created equal. Just as price and quality are decision making factors in a purchase, so also should the license rights be considered when licensing software.

 

[jiarby]

Lets say you make a business card for a business, or maybe a door decal. Not really a logo, just some stylized text like I posted already.

Next month you get a call from a T-Shirt guy that wants you to send him the EPS because they are buying shirts now....

This would be a violation.

BUT...The customer can call YOU and you can make the t-shirts.

I wonder if YOU can job out the T-Shirt printing??

oy vey///

Fred was right.... should have avoided this thread!

 

[Bigdawg]

That's what I mean jiarby. Way too tricky for my taste having to sort out what would be acceptable and what wouldn't. I wish someone from LHF would chime in and answer some of these questions...

 

[jiarby]

I think they lost alot of credibiliy over the "Garner" episode. Sure, they may have been right, but made themselves look draconian in the process. (just my opinion)

 

[Rodi]

P22 sued because someone used one of thier fonts as a logo! Imagine that kind of crap? What if Herman Zapf personally visited every shop that had a sign in Optima, Palatino, Zapf Dingbats and demanded money? At a certain point of fame, you lose your privacy, but the trade off is your fame, and it is that way with fonts. They are not private commissions, it is a business transaction to create money. Consider the font for Time magazine by Mathew Carter (great Typographer and a digital pirate, he founded Bitstream who pirated Linotype) is so well controlled and if you work on their files you are very restricted about that font. It has not yet been pirated, it is personally too much cost to the individual who gets caught pirating it. That is as close to a commisioned fine work as it gets.
Fonts are utilitarian, but as pirates steal, so do the founderies seek to plunder. Both are bad extremes. I admit I buy font libraries second hand and don't pay the license fee, but if no one ever "registered" them and I have that option, is that stealing?
Pirating is so foundational to fonts, there are so few "legitimate" fonts out there. Consider Adobe Garamond, they got a patent on it, not withstanding "previous" art that was so close you and I mean you who are reading cannot tell the difference between GG Langes Berthold Garamond and Adobe Garamond. Both are Garamond, but both are revivals too, made twenty years or so apart. More picking on Adobe. Look at Myriad, most people recognize it as FRUTIGER, and it is. Segoe from Microsoft is the same way. More on Adobe, Today Sans was a great font from Scangraphic, About 10 years later Adobe brings out Cronos (Robert Slimbach, rhymes with Hack was the "Creator" of both Adobe Cronos and Adobe Garamond) as an Adobe Exclusive. Excuse my French, but this is total CRAP.
Adobe is part of a software piracy agenda on one hand, but where it is expedient, they are the worst of crooks.
A mystery on Times Roman. Times Roman was made by Monotype for the London Times by Stanley Morrison, if memory serves me right. We all have it, great font. Weird thing is Linotype owns the license for Times, and Monotype came out with Times New Roman. My wonder is now that Monotype/Agfa owns Linotype, will they continue to sell Times New Roman or will they all go just to times? Monotype also made these pirates ARIAL, a knockoff of the metrics of Helvetica with a few charachters being different, also Book Antiqua is a ripped off Palatino. They own all of them now, I wonder when they will stop pirating themselves?
Are fonts really revivals or just plain old ripoffs? If you keep consistant in this argument, no one comes out clean. If you claim they are revivals then some real pirates are in your midst, if you claim ripoffs, you have called the most respected names in typography ripoffs.
Fonts are fascinating!