• I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...

unethical vendors

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Man am I disappointed right now. This'll be lengthy, I apologize in advance, I just need to vent.

We just lost a $100k/year client to one of our vendors.

This "vendor" is someone we've been doing business with for almost 15 years. We've bought 8 or 9 pieces of equipment from them, including our two current printers, laminator and RIP. For years we exclusively bought our ink from them and a considerable amount of media. In 2009 we spent about $70k with them. I recognize we're in no way their largest customer, but we have to account for something.

Anyway, this vendor, as it turns out, has started a fairly aggressive campaign to cut their supply customers out of the picture. They've always preached to us and other customers like us that they are "our partners" and "nothing matters more than our relationship", so their about face is puzzling.

If they want to go after end-user retail work, I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is they way they're doing it: undercutting everybody by enormous margins. They have a beautiful demo facility full of the latest and greatest wide format equipment that unfortunately for us, they don't own. It must be nice to be able to buy your ink and media for half what we buy it for, and print it on equipment you paid nothing for.

Case in point, the job (and subsequently account) we just lost was for about 400 s.f. of poster paper. Our price to the customer was and always has been $2.97 p.s.f.. Low? Maybe, but competitive on a retail level considering we print approx. 2-3k s.f. a month for this customer. The problem is my former vendor cut my legs out from under me by bidding the job at... wait for it... wait for it... $0.49 p.s.f..

The worst part is, they can service the customer well. They can provide a high quality product. They can and will deliver. And at a price absolutely nobody can touch. I don't blame my customer for dropping us. Why would they continue to use us when they can get exactly the same everything from them for pennies on the dollar? I'd do the same thing.

I questioned the president of the "vendor" this afternoon and his response was an in-my-face lie: "we do not in any way sell direct to the end user". Interesting because prior to that conversation I spoke with some local colleagues who have experienced this same problem in the last few months. Selling to hospitals, car dealerships, restaurants, gas stations, cities, and anyone else they can find. And all the while biting the hand that feeds them.

I wouldn't be too terribly upset if we lost a client fair and square. It happens and I'm accepting of that fact. But this is just low, really low. They've made it so nobody can compete with them. To me it borders on collusion.

Anyway, if anybody uses any vendors in Cincinnati, OH, PM me and I'll tell you who we're dealing with. They'll do it to you too, if they haven't already.
 
S

Stan B

Guest
My thought is you vendor is a reseller and a licensed dealer of ink, equipment, etc. They don't make it. They sell for big reputable companies. I would contact manufacturers who must appreciate your money spent through the dealer and make them discontinue dealer license. That is plain unfair and don't let it go. At least try to fight back with whoever is selling to them to begin with
 

mikefine

New Member
Mike:
Sorry to hear about the account. That is a tough hit, but we have all been there. This is probably not what you want to hear at this time, but these
are my thoughts...

I think you might be leaving out some details in your explanation because
I am not following why you say it is unfair for them to make it so nobody can compete.

Sounds to me like they have just figured out a better way to delivery the goods -- being your vendor or not.

It is part of being in business. One day you wake up, and you can't compete because the industry has changed, or the competition has upgraded. As you stated, you are not even close to being competitive.

I hate to say this, but if you can't beat them -- join them. That is my advice. If they are at $.49 retail, what would they charge you
wholesale on future orders? You could probably make some real interesting money that way....
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Mike, I'm not leaving anything out. Do you think it's ethical or fair business practice to do what they're doing? Sure they'll get away with it, sure they've "found a better way". But in business just like life, there is right and wrong. People get away with wrong every day but that doesn't make it okay or acceptable.

I don't know where you buy your supplies from, but this is no different than if Grimco, Fellers, Advantage or any other supplier started selling a finished product directly to our customers. Any one of them could, they buy the supplies for way less than they sell it to us, and they could print on their "demo" equipment given to them by the manufacturers for the purpose of selling said equipment, not manufacturing a finished product sold on a retail level to the end user thus cutting out the intended buyer of the equipment/ink/media in the end.

Hell, for that matter, it's not much different than HP, Mimaki, Mutoh, Vutek, or whatever other equipment manufacturer using their own equipment to manufacture a finished product and sell it retail. Take it farther. It's no different than Home Depot going into the home building business and building homes for fifty cents on the dollar compared to all others because they buy direct at reseller rates.

I say it is unfair and they are making it impossible for anybody else to compete because that's exactly what it is. I cannot buy ink as a "reseller" at reseller prices directly from Mimaki. Nor can I buy media directly from 3M, Oracal, Starflex, or any other manufacturer at the reseller price level because I am not a reseller. And I cannot get my hands on free demo equipment from manufacturers with the supposed intent of using it to demonstrate it to potential equipment buyers. You can't either, I don't think anybody here can. We have to buy it from suppliers like Grimco, Fellers, or my former vendor. We all pay relatively the same price give or take. We all hold to some level of price competitiveness, partly because we want or need to make a certain profit, partly because there is a competitive price level that makes sense to sell within (and not to go below), and partly because it's fair (to customers and competitors).

The bottom line is they are fixing the price. They are forcing us (all of us, not just my company) to pay them the price they set, when they don't have to adhere to it themselves. It makes competition impossible, not difficult but truly impossible. It's the very definition of antitrust.
 
S

Stan B

Guest
No no no. His vendor is a dealer to the manufacturers and his price break and license is not to print but to resell. I can not buy mimaki from mimaki and ss ink too. They are given dealer price and license and not me for a reason. And same with Roland etc resellers. I tried to put 20k ink order with manufacturer and you know what I was sent to a dealer. Do not mix competition with licensed dealer resellers who got a bright idea to become a sign shop and use insider pricing.



Mike:
Sorry to hear about the account. That is a tough hit, but we have all been there. This is probably not what you want to hear at this time, but these
are my thoughts...

I think you might be leaving out some details in your explanation because
I am not following why you say it is unfair for them to make it so nobody can compete.

Sounds to me like they have just figured out a better way to delivery the goods -- being your vendor or not.

It is part of being in business. One day you wake up, and you can't compete because the industry has changed, or the competition has upgraded. As you stated, you are not even close to being competitive.

I hate to say this, but if you can't beat them -- join them. That is my advice. If they are at $.49 retail, what would they charge you
wholesale on future orders? You could probably make some real interesting money that way....
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Slamdunkpro

New Member
When I was an dealer I had to buy my wide format demo printer (I did get a discount). The only agreement was that I had to keep it for 6 months or until the next model was released before I sold it. There was no provision about "no retail production". I suspect that with these economic times the manufacturers don't really care where the products and supplies go as long as they sell. I think your only recourse is to do what you are doing, don't buy from them and out them at every opportunity. If enough people stop buying from them and their sales drop off, the manufacturer might pull their agreement.
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
Slamdunkpro, I don't expect the manufacturers to put an end to it. I'd sure like it if they did but realistically I know there's little if anything little ol' me can do to stop it. Besides, in this economy, I'm sure as long as they're getting paid for their ink and equipment and media they couldn't care less what is done with it. I can only do as you suggested, move my business to vendors that respect it and operate at the same moral and ethical level that I hold so dear. And I can do my best to prevent the same thing from happening to others.
 

Steve Werner

New Member
In the long run it usually catches up to those vendors. I remember back in the late 80's working for my fathers print shop our biggest customer was a company that wrote appraisal guide books, kept us busy 3 to 6 days a week. One of our vendors went to the company and sold them a darkroom, printing press, and bindery equipment. That company doesn't exist any longer nor does the salesman work in the industry any longer. People and companies like that wash out usually. Regardless, sorry to hear about your experience. One of the problems with being a distributor, which I'm guessing you are, is the changing business strategies of our sources.
 

Craig Sjoquist

New Member
Well this has happen ever since vinyl cutters came around now printers have been doing this ...... all I got to say is well as sign professionals we have not protected our industry pricing at all, also not protected who get's in to the sign business... you got the cash your a sign shop... vender's have done the same to us you got the cash you got a machine.

Well end result is this kind of question..... glad I'm to old to care anymore, and have good hand lettering skills so I'll always be in demand hopefully
 

mark galoob

New Member
back in my younger days, we formed coopertives with neighbors and friends, pooled our money and bought direct from manufactures...(organic food stuffs). i think this should scare the pants off of venders that try that crap... i mean, what if everybody on this forum stopped using venders and bought direct from manufacturer through a coopertive. all of our ink/media/hardware pricing would be much lower.

mark galoob
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
So why isn't that option out there ?

Because in theory it wouldn't be "fair" to the manufacturer's resellers, like my vendor in question. 3M, Mimaki, HP, Avery, Oracal, Sihl, etc., these guys protect their resellers, they have their backs, not ours. It's the resellers, our vendors, who in turn look out for us, or at least are supposed to...
 

Letterbox Mike

New Member
One of the problems with being a distributor, which I'm guessing you are, is the changing business strategies of our sources.

Steve, no I'm not a distributor. We're just a small 7 person shop trying to do really good work for our clients. We have to buy our supplies and consumables from the same places as everyone else on here.
 

FatCat

New Member
The whole thing stinks. This company has relied on other businesses like Mike's to build their business over the years. Things are hard enough right now without having to fight your vendor to keep your own customers.

Sheesh.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Its really lower than whale poop when vendors stoop to these stunts, but it hit me hard like this back in the late '80's already, when vendors started selling computer systems and plotters to MY customers.

Once many of the big guys sold all the high over-priced systems they could in the sign trade and thoroughly saturated the trade with them, they headed right off for our customers. Hospitals, beer distributors, large companies that could afford this stuff. I always felt like the guinea pig and once these manufacturers and distributors used us at the initial high prices... they started lowering prices and started to sell to our end-users.

Its a ba-a-a-ad world out there.... and its only getting worse.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top