US Tariffs, Sigh!

[MP Custom]

oh boy, more "dictator" rhetoric.
at least the libtards have moved on from the russian collusion hoax, but crying wolf isn't getting you anywhere.

Why do you Americans insult people with different political beliefs? ,
And why are so many of you so intolerant of opposing ideas?
Do you WANT to live in a country where everyone has the exact same thoughts as you?
And , seriously, it's politics, not being a die hard fan of your favourite football team.
Trump was right, he could shoot a child, on camera, and the maga team would spin it , and end up saying how great it was that he did it. Does critical thinking not exist anymore?

 

[ikarasu]

he's not playing with the constitution. hes playing with your feelings. The crazy thing is this: what has he done that's NOT legal? Have you seen the news lately about letitia james? chick got busted for what she accused TRUMP of doing.

Isn't he a convicted felon? As in... Went to trial before a judge, and a jury of his peers found him guilty? On 34 counts I believe.

If a non partial (as non partial as a jury can be... Don't forget prosecutors and his lawyers get to nullify jurors and have their pick) panel of jurrots found him guilty on 34 counts... And you still dont think that he did anything illegal, would anything I say change your mind? Would anything I can point out that he's currently doing be counted as illegal, if hes not being tried / convicted for it?

There's lots of stuff that's considered illegal.... Breaking the treaty he himself out into place, then calling it the worst deal ever is illegal.... But he gets around it by saying there's a fentanyl problem... Which again, I'd like to point out his own administration did not list Canada as a problem country when they released their drug offender country threat list... But even if Canada was a huge fentanyl problem.... It's not a national emergency that allows you to invoke tarrifs.... And neither is a trade balance with every single country in the world. It's illegal, and why he's getting sued by many states / countries.... You may agree with the tarrifs, and what he's trying to do, and may even agree with how he's doing it because you think it's the only way to get it done... But that doesn't mean its legal.

The president is supposed to be someone who follows the law to a T - doesn't skirt rules, or play dirty.... It's supposed to be someone with integrity. I've said before... I don't disagree with a lot of things trump is trying to do, but I do disagree with how he's doing it.


No idea who Leticia James is - just did a quick Google search... Is it that she's accused of mortgage fraud, which is what she accused and prosecuted trump for... Or is there more? She should be prosecuted and put on trial for it. If Trump did it.... He should have been prosecuted as well, so I don't fault her for that.... But if she did it, so should she be, and I hope she is. I'm a firm believer in if you do a crime... You should do the time, doesn't matter who you are. The world would be a better place if rich people didn't get away with slaps on the wrists for stuff they do.

 

[MikePro]

Trump was right, he could shoot a child, on camera, and the maga team would spin it , and end up saying how great it was that he did it. Does critical thinking not exist anymore?

no, Trump would be held to account.
your king, however, could do it anytime he wanted to.

 

[GAC05]

Trump was right, he could shoot a child, on camera, and the maga team would spin it , and end up saying how great it was that he did it. Does critical thinking not exist anymore?

You're embellishing a wee bit here. Nitpicking is the cornerstone of useless arguments on the internets, so let's tighten it up.

 

[ikarasu]

Remember guys, this is a signs forum.. not a political one, none of us are political scholars... Everyone is just stating their opinion, and one persons opinion isn't more valid than the others. It's easy to Say trumps doing illegal things (None of us are lawyers or prosecutors), It's easy enough To say Trumps playing 5D chess and America will be the greatest it's ever been (None of us are psychics). I can guarantee that no matter which side is more right, they're still wrong about some things. It's politics... it's not as cut and dry as we'd like it to be.

First 20-30 pages were great... The last 10 or so have been a lot more bickering back and fourth and name calling.... but it seems to mostly be getting back on track now, and I dont know about you guys... but rather than throw insults at eachother, I'd much rather a more open constructive dialogue... even if it seems like no one is making headway, it's still a heck of a lot more constructive than calling people libtards or meggats.

 

[JBurton]

none of it sounds appealing, and i appreciate your stance even though it is laced with hypotheticals to cast shade on the opposition.

Just to be clear, my tom cruise comment was more sarcastic commentary than hypothetical, and one can have fear be it rational or irrational whether the situation is hypothetical or not, but Trump very seriously said:
“We always have to obey the laws, but we also have homegrown criminals that push people into subways, that hit elderly ladies on the back of the head with a baseball bat when they’re not looking, that are absolute monsters,” Trump told reporters. “I’d like to include them.”
So here he's indicating a desire to deport homegrown criminals. Add in the fact that he's arresting legal status individuals (be them citizens or not, their status is/was legal until it was revoked) who protested against Israel, and now you can see how all it takes is someone acting the wrong way to get the boot.
So a plausible scenario, I boycott Israel. I get sideways with my state's policy of not doing business with any business which supports a boycott of Israel. I take them to court for infringing on my first amendment rights (because corporations have the same rights as individuals). I lose my case in court because I'm deep in Trump territory. Now I have a crosshair on my back as a target for deportation because I'm obviously an anti-semitic criminal...
This actually happened to our largest newspaper when they lost a contract to run ads for the state.

 

[MikePro]

witholding deportation orders is not a legal status, its a hold on deportation due to asylum claim of persecution (which, legally, the multiple next-nearest countries should have been the one to grant him asylum)
The conditions of El Salvador have since changed thus allowing for the protection to be lifted.

...and nobody is entitled to your goods&services, so refuse to bake any/all the Israel cakes you desire. its well within your rights. kinda weird, but antisemitism is the hip thing nowadays i guess. you do you boo.

 

[BigNate]

witholding deportation orders is not a legal status, its a hold on deportation .... and the conditions of El Salvador have since changed thus allowing for the protection to be lifted.
...and nobody is entitled to your goods&services, so refuse to bake any/all the Israel cakes you desire. its well within your rights.

.. yes, agreed... but there is still this little thing called "due process" which from what I read, in this case, specifically indicates that the individual should have been before a judge and the order of stay rescinded - then deport him... satisfying the due process clauses in the little document we like to call the USA Constitution.... (skipping this step is how the Executive branch managed to get a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling to bring him back for due process....)

 

[MikePro]

parroting talking points like "due process" whilst ignoring the evidence must grow tiresome.

 

[XtremeXccessories]

parroting talking points like "due process" whilst ignoring the evidence must grow tiresome.

View attachment 176966

Pretty telling that MAGA considers the Constitution of the United States a "talking point".

 

[MikePro]

once again, ignoring the evidence of due process is not lack of due process.
parrots gonna parrot, i guess.

 

[BigNate]

due process in this case would be to present the evidence to a court - possibly a jury of peers - so the evidence can be properly vetted through checks and balances. If we remove the step of actually proving the evidence we end up with no checks and balances and what is generally considered an autocracy - or governance by 1 body.

 

[Geneva Olson]

.. yes, agreed... but there is still this little thing called "due process" which from what I read, in this case, specifically indicates that the individual should have been before a judge and the order of stay rescinded - then deport him... satisfying the due process clauses in the little document we like to call the USA Constitution.... (skipping this step is how the Executive branch managed to get a 9-0 SCOTUS ruling to bring him back for due process....)

I kept thinking about our conversation yesterday and something wasnt sitting well with me. Stephen MIller was pretty adamant about the scotus ruling being in trumps favor...and then I went back and watched it again. There's a word in the ruling that we need to focus on ...."facilitate". As in the governments obligation was to "facilitate" garcia's return. AND THEY DID. They met with bukele in the white house and he said, "I can't smuggle a terrorist back to america". SO, what we have is a "loophole". Trump designated ms13 as a terrorist organization, Garcia is an ms13 gang member.

The executive branch complied with the scotus ruling to "facilitate" his return and the government of el salvador said, "you're not getting him back". That is all the due process garcia is gonna get.

 

[BigNate]

I kept thinking about our conversation yesterday and something wasnt sitting well with me. Stephen MIller was pretty adamant about the scotus ruling being in trumps favor...and then I went back and watched it again. There's a word in the ruling that we need to focus on ...."facilitate". As in the governments obligation was to "facilitate" garcia's ruling. AND THEY DID. They met with bukele in the white house and he said, "I can't smuggle a terrorist back to america". SO, what we have is a "loophole".

The executive branch complied with the scotus ruling to "facilitate" his return and the government of el salvador said, "you're not getting him back". That is all the due process garcia is gonna get.

I agree with what you read and what the Executive's position is - I say let's see how this goes through the courts.

 

[BigNate]

I agree with what you read and what the Executive's position is - I say let's see how this goes through the courts.

Also, my understanding is that this "ms13 gang member" has never been tried or convicted of anything in the USA, and even that he is an "ms13 member" has never been proven in court - it has only been a talking point for the executive branch, no due process of presenting the "evidence" to anyone.

Hey, I am not arguing that we want to keep criminals anyone illegal in our country -- I am just saying that the USA Constitution generally does not allow for rights to be removed without evidence being presented to a jury or at minimum a judge. (This is still America isn't it?... I may have slept for too long....)

 

[Geneva Olson]

Also, my understanding is that this "ms13 gang member" has never been tried or convicted of anything in the USA, and even that he is an "ms13 member" has never been proven in court - it has only been a talking point for the executive branch, no due process of presenting the "evidence" to anyone.

Hey, I am not arguing that we want to keep criminals anyone illegal in our country -- I am just saying that the USA Constitution generally does not allow for rights to be removed without evidence being presented to a jury or at minimum a judge. (This is still America isn't it?... I may have slept for too long....)

Hey...I personally believe that this is GOOD conversation. We are seeing real time whos telling the truth. (i'm still maintaining exec branch is telling the truth).
Garcia was picked up in 2019 and presented to a democrat judge. they determined he was an ms13 gang member.
ON APPEAL, the next democrat judge agreed with the first judge-- an ms13 gang member.

Apparently they have a confidential informant who said he wasn't only an MS13 gang member, but high ranking.
He also wears the ms13 gang apparel.
His lawyers then claimed that he was a threat from a "rival gang" in el salvador (Pam Bondi brought up the fact that if the lawyers were arguing that he wasnt a gang member, then how could a rival gang be after him). Hence the reason a NEW JUDGE imposed the deport him anywhere BUT EL Salvador. The administrative error that everyone was "complaining about" was that they sent him to El Salvador and they weren't supposed to. But, now that he's there, Bukele said, he cant come back to get his due process. At this point, it's international and he's in his country of origin.
It seems completely logical that he would stay in El Salvador.

In addition to this: He married his american wife while he was in jail in 2019. She's actually filed 2 separate domestic abuse cases against him since 2019.

 

[MikePro]

due process in this case would be to present the evidence to a court - possibly a jury of peers - so the evidence can be properly vetted through checks and balances. If we remove the step of actually proving the evidence we end up with no checks and balances and what is generally considered an autocracy - or governance by 1 body.

imagine assuming we can grant jury trials for tens of millions of illegal immigrants
this is why we have boards & judges to facilitate such a process, ya know ...the one's who denied his asylum claim a decade ago, and then provided a hold on his deportation order five years ago, and then removed his deportation hold after his country of origin was deemed safe shortly after his spouse filed for a protection order for beating her with a 1yo in her arms.
Alien Enemies Act merely allowed officials to finally deport him, when he was scooped up in a gang unit raid & was identified by multiple sources as part of MS-13.

checks and balances, check.
onto the next headline.

 

[ikarasu]

imagine assuming we can grant jury trials for tens of millions of illegal immigrants
this is why we have boards & judges to facilitate such a process, ya know ...the one's who denied his asylum claim a decade ago, and then provided a hold on his deportation order five years ago, and then removed his deportation hold after his country of origin was deemed safe shortly after his spouse filed for a protection order for beating her with a 1yo in her arms.
Alien Enemies Act merely allowed officials to finally deport him, when he was scooped up in a gang unit raid & was identified by multiple sources as part of MS-13.

checks and balances, check.
onto the next headline.

He had a judges order saying he shouldn't be deported, right? I havent heard anything but good things about this guy... so I did some research with what you / geneva posted, and it does seem pretty obvious he was, or is MS13... And that he's a wife beater. In which case, he's a piece of crap that should get all his legal status removed, and be deported - He shouldn't have withholding status, because he put himself in that position... So what if opposing gangs would hurt him... They have just as much a chance when he's out on the streets.

BUT Defying a judges orders destroys checks and balances. I don't know about sending immigrants to an el salvador prison... seems pretty brutal to me, Even if it is only gangs with Ms13 ties... No government is infallible, and I'm sure some innocent people will eventually slip through the cracks. but This guy in particular had an order staying his deportation and the US should have fought and got that order rescinded... and then deported him. Show all their evidence that he's Ms13... Get his status removed, then throw the book at him and throw him into an el salvador prison.

I think All rapists, wife beaters, gang members, people who sell drugs to kids should get a lifetime in jail. (This guy seems to fall into that category) If people can't be a contributing member to society, they should be gone - BUT I also don't want our (Or your) government to be the judge, jury, and executioner of that. There are checks and balances for a reason... No one is infallible. Lets say Trump has no ill will, do you trust the next president who could be a Democrat to have the same powers trumps trying to have for himself? Who's to say the next guy won't be deporting political rivals, or using his power to just deport people who have wronged him?

I'm not saying Trump is trying to take over America and become a Dictator - But being able to ignore judges orders and bypass the legal system and procedures that are put in place, are pretty dictatorship.

Google "Canada 2 michaels" - We arrested the head of huweii on behalf of USA's request... And China didn't like that, so they arrested 2 Canadian business men who were in China, and accused them of being Canadian spies. It was very obvious, and China pretty much came out and said they wouldn't release them unless we released Meng. They held them prisoner, on espionage charges...with zero evidence, trials, or anything... for 1000 days... And only got released when Mengs house arrest was let go. Thats the type of power no one should have... And its what makes America what America is.... Checks and balances. There are rules to protect peoples freedoms.... If the rules are wrong, change the rules... but dont ignore them.


I personally hope they bring him back, He goes on Trial to get his status removed, and then they send him right back to El salvador. IMO, That would be a win for Trump, and a win for USA for getting rid of him.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/im...-exposes-rift-democrats-take-trump-rcna201723

 

[Geneva Olson]

They made a clerical error by sending him to El Salvador. He was supposed to be deported to ANY OTHER COUNTRY EXCEPT El Salvador. There's no reason to remove a status. It was already removed. he just ended up in the "wrong" place. AND, the ONLY REASON it was the wrong place was because of a rival gang. terrorist is terrorist.
Would you have felt the same way had it been an al qaeda terrorist ?

 

[ikarasu]

They made a clerical error by sending him to El Salvador. He was supposed to be deported to ANY OTHER COUNTRY EXCEPT El Salvador. There's no reason to remove a status. It was already removed. he just ended up in the "wrong" place. AND, the ONLY REASON it was the wrong place was because of a rival gang. terrorist is terrorist.
Would you have felt the same way had it been an al qaeda terrorist ?

Yes. If The government just grabbed someone off the streets and Said he was al Qaeda And wanted to deport him, and sent him to a prison.... I would. I think he's MS13, but the evidence against him is a bit flimsy - He was caught with 2 associates...and wearing a bulls cap (Which experts say has no affiliation with Ms13 anymore). Odds are he is one, but shouldn't he be able to defend himself? Theres been lots, and lots of cases of people being wrongly convicted... And thats after 12 people have looked at the evidence... So even with the checks and balances we get things wrong, what are the odds ignoring them we wont? If he was convicted of being al Qaeda it'd be different. But it's still a third world Country, El Salvador isn't known for how they treat their people, let alone prisoners...

Lets look at Guantanamo bay. LOTS of Al Qaeda, and al Qaeda suspected people were sent there - I was young, so I don't remember all the details... I just remember seeing photos of Soldiers stripping prisoners naked... posing for photos next to them while naked and hung giving thumbs up... Lots of evidence that the prisoners were tortured - A lot of really messed up shit was going on there. What if one of those people were innocent, but the government thought they were Al Qaeda? And even if so... does anyone deserve torture? How does that make us any better than they are? IF theyre deemed unfit to be on this world... Give them the death penalty - What does blaring music, humiliating them, stripping them naked, pulling off nails acomplish other than show our own barbarianism? This El salvador prison thing is becoming the next Guantanamo bay... Except instead of US Soldiers doing the torturing, we're sending the criminals to another Country so they can do the torturing.

Theres enough human rights violations going on in the world... china with its Uyghurs, Russia with Ukraine, Gaza and Israel... It'd be nice not to start another situation where in 5 years we get leaked photos, see how people were being treated... and find out even 1 guy was innocent and shouldnt have been there... but because we wanted to deport as fast as we can, we ignored the checks and balances so it was "Acceptable" collateral damage.