UV Outdoor Life

[ChrisN]

We are in the research stage of purchasing a new true flatbed printer, upgrading from an Agfa Anapurna M4f. We are using G1 inks, and the outdoor life on coroplast is less than 6 months, varying depending on the density & darkness of the print. So one of the things we are hoping to upgrade is the outdoor life. Can any flatbed users let me know what their outdoor life is on coroplast? I am especially interested in CET, Fujifilm, and Oce.

Thanks!

 

[Solventinkjet]

At the Mimaki JFX200 training I was told that the outdoor durability of their UV inks is ~4 years unlaminated. It all depends on where the sign is located obviously but they seem to be as good or better than solvent inks when it comes to durability.

 

[DougWestwood]

FUJI K1 inks

Hi There,

We run two FUJI Acuity flatbeds, using K1 UV inks.
This is their latest formula, and OCE is probably using it, too.

I took a piece or coro, printed on it, then cut off a chunk and
pit it in our freezer for a couple of days. Then I took it out
and folded it a couple of times. The ink remained intact, no flakes, no cracks.
I would say that a static sign with this ink passes the winter test.

As for summer and fading, that all depends on sun exposure.
One of these signs outdoors in constant shade would remain
basically the same for years.

Good luck!
- Doug
Vancouver

 

[VISCOM]

I feel your pain I have a Anapurna M2 with G1 inks. I just purchased a CET 5' x 10' the ink adhesion is the best I have seen you can PM me on this

 

[ChrisN]

I took a piece or coro, printed on it, then cut off a chunk and
pit it in our freezer for a couple of days. Then I took it out
and folded it a couple of times. The ink remained intact, no flakes, no cracks.
I would say that a static sign with this ink passes the winter test.
Vancouver

I can pull a reject that's been sitting around, and fold it a couple of times, and the ink cracks. That's another thing we want - more flexibility. I'm not sure how much fading our coro signs do, but one customer brought back a yard sign after maybe two or three month's worth of weekend use. The sign was a solid black background, and literally all of the black had cracked and started flaking off.

Do you happen to know what Oce claims the outdoor expectancy for that inkset is? I couldn't find it online.

I feel your pain I have a Anapurna M2 with G1 inks. I just purchased a CET 5' x 10' the ink adhesion is the best I have seen you can PM me on this

Cool, I may contact you regarding how you like your CET after we get further into our research. Right now, I'm anxiously waiting for the ISA show!

I did see that CET claims an outdoor life of 2-5 years, which is 4-10x what we are getting now.

 

[ChrisN]

Just a bump for today's crowd...

 

[RyanFelty]

We have a CET as well and the ink adhesion is great...I have used the CET factory ink and now our ink system was converted to Nazdar inks and no problems to report so far. Good luck in your search!

 

[LarryB]

I have owned a HP FB500 for almost two years now and loving it. I have not seen any fading on anything which has come off it. Great printer!

 

[Gino]

ChrisN........

I think we talked to you a year or so ago about this very thing. I think Russ got us together. We have similar machines, and use the same ink. At the time, you said you weren't experiencing the problem. We noticed this problem in the last year or so and I'm beginning to think it's not the machine, but the substrates.

We've been doing a lot of research and now, it's even happening to some of the aluminium composite boards as well. We have customers with Cor-X signs from 5 years ago, not experiencing any problems. About 2 months ago, I went by a place where we did some signs on aluminum composite from some of our first signs done with our machine from 2009. The signs face south and take a beating UV-wise and still look perfectly fine. Colors were black, light and medium blue and red. I've looked at many of our earlier signs, and they all made it through without problems. The ink has not changed, but we've found by using a different manufacturer for substrates, we get our old results back. The only thing we've changed on the machine is we've stepped up our bulb type. It supposedly puts out at a better rate completing a better first adhesion resulting in not cracking or many other stoopid problems.

Other than the speed of our machine, we've become happy with it again. It's been suggested by many people the ink recipe has been changed, but I don't think that's what happened, as we can force the issue by buying a better grade of substrates and then not experiencing the problems anymore.

One other thing we do is to not cut anything for at least 24 hours if at all possible. That just takes better planning on our part.

I know my next machine will be a CET and I know for a fact Dave is a real stand up person. I have 100% faith in him and his machines. When we pull the string on it, we will become partners so to speak.

Gino​

 

[VISCOM]

We have a CET as well and the ink adhesion is great...I have used the CET factory ink and now our ink system was converted to Nazdar inks and no problems to report so far. Good luck in your search!

Hey Ryan, down the road from you in New Cumberland PA.... what made you go away from the CET ink... I hear the series 90 ink have great adhesion

 

[Gino]

Hey Ryan, down the road from you in New Cumberland PA.... what made you go away from the CET ink... I hear the series 90 ink have great adhesion

Someone with a similar machine to us, went with the Nazdar inks and is having horrible results. They came to us to help them several times, but the profiles are so different, we can't use their files at all. Anything we did for them, had to be completely reconfigured.

 

[RyanFelty]

That is right down the road! We were looking at different ink options to reduce cost. We were thinking about this change for about a year or so because of the risk involved. A tech came in and switched everything over and made a profile which matched our old printer very closely. I guess it works for some people and not others as Gino said. I have had no problems as of yet and we have been running the new ink for a couple months now. It came down to cost effectiveness and Nazdar stands behind their product. CET ink is great too but this route can drastically effect the bottom line at the end of the year. $68 vs. $250 a liter. We have 6 colors plus white so it made sense once we did some research. Our customers that we have had for over 10 years now have not seen a difference in their prints which was what I was extremely worried about. I am sure this will start the INK WAR but it worked for us so far and I will definitely update if we have any problems.

 

[VISCOM]

That is right down the road! We were looking at different ink options to reduce cost. We were thinking about this change for about a year or so because of the risk involved. A tech came in and switched everything over and made a profile which matched our old printer very closely. I guess it works for some people and not others as Gino said. I have had no problems as of yet and we have been running the new ink for a couple months now. It came down to cost effectiveness and Nazdar stands behind their product. CET ink is great too but this route can drastically effect the bottom line at the end of the year. $68 vs. $250 a liter. We have 6 colors plus white so it made sense once we did some research. Our customers that we have had for over 10 years now have not seen a difference in their prints which was what I was extremely worried about. I am sure this will start the INK WAR but it worked for us so far and I will definitely update if we have any problems.

Thanks Ryan, I would like to stay in touch with you on this.. wonder if the gen5 printhead would take that Nazdar ink???

 

[ChrisN]

We have a CET as well and the ink adhesion is great...I have used the CET factory ink and now our ink system was converted to Nazdar inks and no problems to report so far. Good luck in your search!

I've been hearing good things about CET's adhesion, so hopefully that bodes well for outdoor life.

We've been doing a lot of research and now, it's even happening to some of the aluminium composite boards as well. We have customers with Cor-X signs from 5 years ago, not experiencing any problems. About 2 months ago, I went by a place where we did some signs on aluminum composite from some of our first signs done with our machine from 2009. The signs face south and take a beating UV-wise and still look perfectly fine. Colors were black, light and medium blue and red. I've looked at many of our earlier signs, and they all made it through without problems. The ink has not changed, but we've found by using a different manufacturer for substrates, we get our old results back. The only thing we've changed on the machine is we've stepped up our bulb type. It supposedly puts out at a better rate completing a better first adhesion resulting in not cracking or many other stoopid problems.

Other than the speed of our machine, we've become happy with it again. It's been suggested by many people the ink recipe has been changed, but I don't think that's what happened, as we can force the issue by buying a better grade of substrates and then not experiencing the problems anymore.

One other thing we do is to not cut anything for at least 24 hours if at all possible. That just takes better planning on our part.

I know my next machine will be a CET and I know for a fact Dave is a real stand up person. I have 100% faith in him and his machines. When we pull the string on it, we will become partners so to speak.

We don't use brand-name coroplast - our last few orders have been Inteplast UltraSmooth corrugated plastic. Supposedly it's all corona-treated and print ready, but, let's just say I'm still not impressed with adhesion.

Yesterday was an interesting day - first I got a call from Digital Color Ink, praising CET's ink and CET in general and relating some of the experiences of @206XL. Then some Agfa/Pitman reps stopped in, and they claimed to have a new "G5" inkset with improved adhesion and possibly a "pour-in" replacement for the G1 inks we are using. The G5 inks aren't officially released yet, but apparently some outfits are using them already, so I'd be interested in any first-hand reports on how well they are working. They also were trying to sell their coroplast competitor, Duratex Coroplastic board, which they said that it is "designed for the Anapurna inks" so adhesion should be great.

 

[Gino]

From what I understand.... the corona treatment does not last all that long and there are actually varying levels of it. If this stuff gets treated..... if at all, in China, til it gets here, distributed to the various manufacturers in this country, then down to the local distributors, you're lucky if any treatment is on it at all anymore. Also, if it's set up on end, it will last much longer than when placed flat. Who do you know keeps this stuff on end ?? That tends to put a curve/belly in it.

We've looked into purchasing a Corona unit, but doesn't sound worthwhile for several 1000's of sheets a year.

Gonna look into this G5 stuff. Thanks.



Pat, as for the stripes being left behind. Something from the old days is.... when wiping these substrates down, you hafta keep wiping until it's thoroughly dry. You cannot wipe it around and then allow some of it to air dry. That WILL give/leave streaks.

 

[LarryB]

I seem to remember being told it's like 6 months....? And that's a good point..... by the time it gets across the pond and into our hands that shelf life is getting pretty thin, depending on manufacturer I suppose. We use Coroplast brand which I believe is made in the US.



Thanks Gino. We're still experimenting with different potions and techniques. The most frustrating part so far is ACM because if you don't prep, you see the tension lines from pulling back the liner (regardless of brand....dibond, epanel, Nudo Polymetal) and if you do prep, you see streaks from wiping it down.

Don't mean to hi-jack the thread, I guess it just goes to show that each printer, inkset and substrate poses it's own challenges.

I use a an empty roll core and start from one end of the material to pull up the liner and attach it to the core then roll the liner off. It makes it much easier to remove and eliminates any streak marks when printing. I have an FB500 and do not see any streak marks.

 

[TimToad]

A big thanks to both Gino and LarryB!

We primarily had issues with the streaks, wipe marks, print anomalies, etc. when printing on ACM regadless of brand. It seems whenever one of us got lazy and didn't keep wiping UNTIL the panel was dry, we'd have issues. I've also noticed the "grip and rip" method of removing the mask adds static electricity to the equation that wiping doesn't always fully eliminate and leaves some imperceptible marks not seen until you print.

 

[AlsEU]

UV outdoor life.

Fuji Acuity (not LED1600):
- KO and KI inks: declared 24 months
- KA inks: declared 12 months
- KV inks: no info, as they are mostly for thermoforming, but (as they have few similarities to KA) I would say 12 months

Oce has exactly the same inks with different names (256 etc.), so it will be similar.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Do you know conversion between Fuji and Océ product codes?

All I know is the following from Océ:

IJ255 - High gamut, low adhesion, glossy
IJ256 - Medium-High gamut, medium adhesion, satin
IJ257 - Medium-High gamut, excellent adhesion, satin
IJ258 - Low gamut, excellent adhesion, matte

 

[VISCOM]

Chris and Geno, I have tested these G5 inks from AGFA and they failed the cross hatch test !!!!! be very careful with these guys... That's why I'm going with Dave Cich. did the same test with Series 90 CET inks and blew the doors of AGFA's G5 inks... Please call me on this if you would like... would be very happy to discuss this with you guy.... Jeff

 

[Gino]

Chris and Geno, I have tested these G5 inks from AGFA and they failed the cross hatch test !!!!! be very careful with these guys... That's why I'm going with Dave Cich. did the same test with Series 90 CET inks and blew the doors of AGFA's G5 inks... Please call me on this if you would like... would be very happy to discuss this with you guy.... Jeff

Failed in what way ?? Worse than the GA ?? I don't think it can get much worse than those inks. Don't get me wrong..... for 75% to 85% of what we do, the G1 is working quite well.

Right now, we can't afford to get another flatbed, but when we do, I know it will be a CET.

I called Pittman and they have no idea of what the G5 is about.

You're not far from us either. Are you around Lebanon or Hummelstown area ??

 

[VISCOM]

Harrisburg, area on the G5 inks it pulled right off ... but it is better then the G1 inks. It feels like AGFA is keeping it quiet till they are sure it works.. I begged them for this ink for 2 years .... talked with Dave Cich and went to Atlanta for 2 days in January and tested everything ... they took me to Express Color and I saw 8 flatbeds and 2 routers working none stop... very impressive setup.. great people . If you would want to see my new printer let me know

Jeff

 

[Deymos1981]

Hello. We worked at Arizona 350 GT. For outdoor we put print in several layers. The shelf life of a print 3 - 4 years. For the first time in print caused a single layer, this seal did not last 6 months. Of course, much depends on the intensity of the sun.