Valuejet ink densities

[zooter96]

We've been profiling media with our 64" valuejet (using Onyx 7.0 and GretagMacbeth Eye-one) and have noticed that the Magenta ink density is very weak. For example, on Avery 3103 vinyl, we measure density values of:

Cyan 2.23
Magenta 1.29
Yellow 0.95
Black 2.38

Magenta typically should have nearly the same density as Cyan. Not 1/2 the density as we see here. This makes producing deep reds a challenge. On our JV3 with Triangle Inks, we measure Cyan 2.1 and Magenta 1.9 on this media.

Has anyone else experienced this when profiling? Does anyone have density measurements from third party ink suppliers?

Thanks,
Jason

 

[jiarby]

I also have onyx & the 1604... We are reprinting a job right now because the red is weak. Makes me wonder!

 

[mark in tx]

Can you adjust the logarithmic curve?

Can you profile in LAB space and let the software interpret to CMYK?

 

[zooter96]

Can you adjust the logarithmic curve?

Can you profile in LAB space and let the software interpret to CMYK?

Yes, you can make all sorts of adjustments, but nothing can make up for lost density - that determines your maximum gamut.

 

[randya]

I have not seen issues with getting good reds out of Eco inks either in the Falcon Outdoor, Toucan LT, or Value Jet series.

Anyone aware of Roland have red issues with Eco ink?

I do run my magenta ink restrictions very high and adjust cyan to the magenta densities to get good grays. I run k slightly higher density than the m/c levels

I have not profiled the 3103, but increased densities on backlit material can be optained by multi-striking the print.

 

[P Wagner]

So if I understand what you are saying Randya, you would restrict Cyan down to be roughly equivalent with the Magenta density, and bring Black to a slightly higher density than the Cyan and Magenta densities.

In the case of the Avery 3103 media, you would be restricting Cyan and Black substantially (perhaps in the 50-60% range) to achieve better balance with the Magenta ink density.

Correct?

Bob

 

[zooter96]

So if I understand what you are saying Randya, you would restrict Cyan down to be roughly equivalent with the Magenta density, and bring Black to a slightly higher density than the Cyan and Magenta densities.

In the case of the Avery 3103 media, you would be restricting Cyan and Black substantially (perhaps in the 50-60% range) to achieve better balance with the Magenta ink density.

Correct?

Bob

You could do that, but at the sacrifice of deep blues and greens. The ideal solution would be a more dense magenta ink.

 

[P Wagner]

I agree that a better density-matched inkset would be the perfect solution. Given that many if not most of the solvent inksets suffer from density imbalances between colors, what will you do...

Bob

 

[zooter96]

I agree that a better density-matched inkset would be the perfect solution. Given that many if not most of the solvent inksets suffer from density imbalances between colors, what will you do...

Bob

Well, our Triangle inks are much better balanced. I wish that Mutoh, or someone, would come out with a stronger magenta. But perhaps it is the limitation of the eco solvent solution. Fortunately, that is about all I have to complain about with the Valuejet - it is an excellent printer.

 

[randya]

So if I understand what you are saying Randya, you would restrict Cyan down to be roughly equivalent with the Magenta density, and bring Black to a slightly higher density than the Cyan and Magenta densities.

In the case of the Avery 3103 media, you would be restricting Cyan and Black substantially (perhaps in the 50-60% range) to achieve better balance with the Magenta ink density.

Correct?

Bob

Yes,
I have run initial ink restriction down in the 40s for some some media, still getting good color, depending on the medias ability to absorb/adsorb ink.

In my experience, if the C and M are not balanced up front greys will have a cast. This is not only the density but the curve shape as well. I default to 2 for the nCurves.

If the initial ink restriction choices are not correct, then excessive ink limits have to be imposed, causing clipping and posterization. It just seems as though the icc has to 'work too hard' to try and compensate and gives unpredictable results.

The key to solvent printing (even Eco solvent) is the evaporation of solvent. The more ink you put down, the more solvent you have to evaporate. The more solvent you put down the more dot gain comes into play producing banding/bleeding (obviously media dependant).

The balance is between quality and gamut, this is the 'art' aspect of profiling for outdoor media. Variations in temperature, humidity and media all come into play. You can make a very 'narrow' profile with a larger gamut that may work the current environment with the current lot of media, but may not work well as the environment changes or with changes in the media.

 

[KR3signguy]

You should have a file that came with onyx that you can print to measure your ink densities, check manual & use it for true accuracy. Once determined, adjust them in the rip & proceed to re-profile. We have Wasatch & that's how we handle it.

The profiles should be in lab to cmyk convert.

I would be skeptical of third party inks, due to constant genetic changes.
If you go to print the same file two years from now & it's off, that's probably why. They're always messin with em.

 

[randya]

We've been profiling media with our 64" valuejet (using Onyx 7.0 and GretagMacbeth Eye-one) and have noticed that the Magenta ink density is very weak. For example, on Avery 3103 vinyl, we measure density values of:

Cyan 2.23
Magenta 1.29
Yellow 0.95
Black 2.38

Magenta typically should have nearly the same density as Cyan. Not 1/2 the density as we see here. This makes producing deep reds a challenge. On our JV3 with Triangle Inks, we measure Cyan 2.1 and Magenta 1.9 on this media.

Has anyone else experienced this when profiling? Does anyone have density measurements from third party ink suppliers?

Thanks,
Jason

Jason you may want to compare your Cyan at 2.23 density to, say a Pantone Cyan, in the Eco ink set you may get a more true Cyan at a lower density value.

 

[KR3signguy]

3:00 today I had to adjust ink density for a new film only a few hours after posting. I haven't had to deal with that for about 6 months, go figure.