Vehicle Wrap Pricing in Arizona gone crazy?

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Hey All, just trying to get some perspective here. Over the last 2 months we have bid on a few wrap projects from one offs to fleets and I've noticed a disturbing trend.

From Clients who were willing to show me my competitors quotes after they went with them I've noticed the pricing has tanked. For what was supposedly quoted apples to apples 3M 180Cv3 + 8518 with install full wraps on trucks totalling 310sq ft the prices were coming in at $1500 - $1600 for one offs, this is from big shops too not just little vinyl jockey's. We bid on one large fleet project that required removal (5+ year old burnt wraps) and the total sqft price the client received was less than $7/sqft including the removal.

My question is, is this the new norm or are these just isolated things? This has happened on the last 4 projects we bid on, including one I low balled just to see what would happen and we still lost by $400.

 

[rjssigns]

Welcome to the world of pure competition. Commoditization also plays a major role. Yes, wraps are fast becoming a commodity.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]Pure Competition[/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]- low barriers to entry, many choices, no business has dominance[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]- many companies competing and nobody has a significant advantage


Low barrier to entry is the key. As equipment gets cheaper it puts signs on the radar of more "entrepreneurs". This leads to the second piece of the puzzle which is more shops competing for a sliver of a finite piece of pie.


[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[Kwiksigns]

Don't worry about it. If you can educate and show you can do better work, it will level out. There was a guy here doing 18' Food trucks for DC (the maximum size allowed) for $1500. Needless to say, he is out of business. Someone also bought a billboard recently and stole my designer and is selling color change and wraps for dirt cheap. The price he is paying my buddy, he won't last. I know what it costs to stay in business along with taxes and everything, the price is not feasible. I don't blame him for going and he offered us the same pay he was offered but there's no way in hell we could match it. I wouldn't sweat it man. You lose some and you win some.

 

[SightLine]

Yep.... don't participate in a race to the bottom. Its a race you cannot nor want to win. Those who are participating will not last long. Doing wraps on those specific materials and including removals for that sort of pricing is insanity and they WILL lose money on it.

I'd also be willing to bet that whoever got it is going to substitute the material and not tell the customer. You could always sneakily check one after they have done the work and peel the tiniest bit in an inconspicuous spot to check the adhesive. If its a substitute material (or not laminated) point it out to the customer who will then force the issue with the idiots that priced it so stupidly low. I have done this..... had a similar scenario where the customer specified 3M 680CR reflective. A few years ago we were underbid by a ridiculous amount on a job to do some striping and graphics on a fleet or 30 police vehicles. A month after I was at that customers place to talk to them on something else that was unrelated. Saw one of the installs the competitor that underbid us did. There was NO crosshatch pattern in the reflective, on 3M 680 that is ALWAYS visible if you look close. I pointed it out to them and told them I can prove it as well - they gave me a go ahead to peel back a couple of inches of the stripe. Smooth white adhesive..... 680 adhesive is silver and you can always see the controltac crosshatch air release pattern. I told them to verify what I was telling them with 3M. A few weeks later I talked to them again and they essentially busted the competitor cold using a substitute material and demanded everything be redone to the spec that was required and quoted. He told me the competitor essentially started crying stating they would lose close to ten grand if they do. He told them that's too bad..... that competitor is out of business now.

 

[gabagoo]

Yep.... don't participate in a race to the bottom. Its a race you cannot nor want to win. Those who are participating will not last long. Doing wraps on those specific materials and including removals for that sort of pricing is insanity and they WILL lose money on it.

I'd also be willing to bet that whoever got it is going to substitute the material and not tell the customer. You could always sneakily check one after they have done the work and peel the tiniest bit in an inconspicuous spot to check the adhesive. If its a substitute material (or not laminated) point it out to the customer who will then force the issue with the idiots that priced it so stupidly low. I have done this..... had a similar scenario where the customer specified 3M 680CR reflective. A few years ago we were underbid by a ridiculous amount on a job to do some striping and graphics on a fleet or 30 police vehicles. A month after I was at that customers place to talk to them on something else that was unrelated. Saw one of the installs the competitor that underbid us did. There was NO crosshatch pattern in the reflective, on 3M 680 that is ALWAYS visible if you look close. I pointed it out to them and told them I can prove it as well - they gave me a go ahead to peel back a couple of inches of the stripe. Smooth white adhesive..... 680 adhesive is silver and you can always see the controltac crosshatch air release pattern. I told them to verify what I was telling them with 3M. A few weeks later I talked to them again and they essentially busted the competitor cold using a substitute material and demanded everything be redone to the spec that was required and quoted. He told me the competitor essentially started crying stating they would lose close to ten grand if they do. He told them that's too bad..... that competitor is out of business now.

I like stories like this!!!

 

[BigfishDM]

How many sq.ft can be installed in 1 hour and how many sq.ft can be removed in 1 hour? On average of course. The biggest mistake the low ballers do is charge nothing for design work it seems.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I'm glad you guys see things the way I do... I was getting worried I missed some memo that went out. I did the math on 2 of the jobs I just lost and three of my competitors quoted $4.50/sq - $5.50/sq supposedly on 3M. I look at that and wonder how you can pay all your bills even as a garage based business at that price.

I'm not going to compete at that level, its easier to take my money and run rather then die a slow death.

 

[rjssigns]

You guys are missing the bigger picture. Regardless of the fact that these bottom feeders don't stay in business long they still take your business away for that period of time. And due to the ease of buying equipment some one else will give it a shot along with a bunch of others.

It is a finite market wherever you are.

How long can you afford to wait them out when they are effectively taking most of your business?

I am not immune either. Long time client says can you beat this? I knew I was in trouble right then. He got a signed bid for $550 for 150 screen printed coro signs. It gets better. That price was for double sided, two color, and included stakes and shipping. Told him go ahead and order and when they come if F'ed up give me a call.

Which brings me to my final point. There is no loyalty anymore. Over the years you do you best everyday to work with their crazy deadlines, messed up art etc... and they forget all of that for a couple bucks.

 

[ChaseO]

Which brings me to my final point. There is no loyalty anymore. Over the years you do you best everyday to work with their crazy deadlines, messed up art etc... and they forget all of that for a couple bucks.

Bingo! However I have noticed some customers coming back after they make their rounds.

 

[Gino]

Who knows this theory better than Chinese Restaurants or Pizza Shops ?? That's why they're on almost every corner. They're all around the same price, but they all advertise differently and have periodic specials. Are you loyal to them ?? No, because you like a different one for various reasons. After you've tried them all and make a decision which you like best, you keep going back, whatever the reason might be. They speak better English, they have better deals, more convenient, better quality...... anything, but it's hardly loyalty.

People will come back to you after they've tried the others, but only because you're either better, cheaper, faster turnaround or whatever, but it has little to do with loyalty.

Be the best you can and stick to your guns.

 

[reQ]

Don't do to many wraps now because of the same issue. I give customer my price, if they want to do it, i get the job, but i will never do the work just to do the work

 

[Desert_Signs]

Hey All, just trying to get some perspective here. Over the last 2 months we have bid on a few wrap projects from one offs to fleets and I've noticed a disturbing trend.

From Clients who were willing to show me my competitors quotes after they went with them I've noticed the pricing has tanked. For what was supposedly quoted apples to apples 3M 180Cv3 + 8518 with install full wraps on trucks totalling 310sq ft the prices were coming in at $1500 - $1600 for one offs, this is from big shops too not just little vinyl jockey's. We bid on one large fleet project that required removal (5+ year old burnt wraps) and the total sqft price the client received was less than $7/sqft including the removal.

My question is, is this the new norm or are these just isolated things? This has happened on the last 4 projects we bid on, including one I low balled just to see what would happen and we still lost by $400.

We've been getting a lot of that lately. I admit, I have thrown in removal on 2 jobs recently. Mostly because I knew we had a slow week coming up and I had a new guy that needed broken.

310 sqft wrap out of my shop would run $9-$10 a sqft depending on the vehicle, but we typically use MPI1005/1360 because I really dislike how the 180Cv3 has been applying lately..

Then, some of it is economy of scale. Some of the big guys in town can print a full wrap, cut it down, and be ready to install it in under an hour. They also buy material at prices less than the local distributors pay.

I've done my best not to participate in a race to the bottom. We give our price and that's pretty much what it is. There's always a little wiggle room, but certainly not $4 a sqft.

BTW: If you see one of my quotes come across your desk and it's FUBAR, shoot me a message... I don't always know everything my sales people are up to. =)

 

[Nuagedesigns]

Same thing here. We actually have a automotive repair shop 75FT across our parkinglot that has since started doing color change wraps because I refused his deadline when my installer was out having back surgery. He brought in a guy who works FT for a wrap shop 10 miles away. They moonlight at night and weekends on wraps. They are doing quite a few wraps for anywhere from $200-$500 install plus material.......And at least 60% I have seen come back for issues. I just laugh at the time that goes in for the price they are charging.

We have always stood our ground on pricing we charge what we charge for quality and reputation. I have not had any issues or returns with any of our wraps and all of our customers leave happy. The best response once was that our custiomer paid for his trailer wrap within the first week of him leaving it in a parking lot for advertising. Any monkey can throw vinyl on trailer or car but the design is what sells the product.


The best is also when someone removes a said chep wrap and brings their unwrapped vehicle to us and asks how to get all the glue lines off the car. Go out inspect and see that the installer has cut straight threw the vinyl, clear coat, and into the paint with a knife...Explain to the customer its not glue and sorry but we cant help you at this time..

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We've been getting a lot of that lately. I admit, I have thrown in removal on 2 jobs recently. Mostly because I knew we had a slow week coming up and I had a new guy that needed broken.

310 sqft wrap out of my shop would run $9-$10 a sqft depending on the vehicle, but we typically use MPI1005/1360 because I really dislike how the 180Cv3 has been applying lately..

Then, some of it is economy of scale. Some of the big guys in town can print a full wrap, cut it down, and be ready to install it in under an hour. They also buy material at prices less than the local distributors pay.

I've done my best not to participate in a race to the bottom. We give our price and that's pretty much what it is. There's always a little wiggle room, but certainly not $4 a sqft.

BTW: If you see one of my quotes come across your desk and it's FUBAR, shoot me a message... I don't always know everything my sales people are up to. =)

That removal job was not a throw in type of job, I would post pictures here but I know they are a member and I don't want to start a bash fest. The removals are the kind that are jet black and look like shattered glass... You know the 10+ hour removals each on 15 vehicles.

I just don't get it and won't be participating. We are looking at moving to a new shop and wanted to drum up base line business but those prices are nut house crazy.

 

[TheDude]

Have they actually completed the job & have you seen for yourself if they did the customer right in removing the old vinyl?

 

[OldPaint]

I .....have to just chuckle.................at posts like this NOW LET ME SAY THIS before you go hes full of **** tude.
1. I AM an old brush guy.
2.saw this same crap take over when the vinyl cutter cut my profits in half because the vinyl business had nothing more then PRICE to get new customers.
3. the vinyl machine brought in more people making signs which made #2 the way to get business.
4. the lowering of the prices created a buying public that EXPECTED sign shops to compete on price..ONLY!
5. THEN THE PRINTER SHOWED UP. takes even less talent/skill to get a shop going)))))
6. when the 1st few was doing printing ?$15-20 sq ft was good. now with so many doing it EVEN ME.... dont want to compete.
i used to do 18 X24 mags $150-200 NOW $35-45. i did banners for years at $10-15 sq ft. NOW i buy them PRINTED for $1.99 sq ft and sell em for $5-7 sq ft.........CAUSE THE PUBLIC CAN BUY THEM FROM SOME PRINTER FOR $4 SQ FT))))))
i honestly dont see it as a money making proposition anymore. but hey......IAM 70..........i would rather sit back and watch the downhill race of prices and profit.
i do PAINT some stuff...............the nice thing is when i get asked to do a job, cost is never an issue.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

I wholeheartedly agree with Old Paint on his comments except #5 the printers do take good learning curve & lots of problems to solve & get right 100% from design to install, but if ya like it, good for ya.

Basically seen the same thing here what you are seeing in AZ & other places, in 1985 when cutters really started to hit the shops in droves & sign shops started popping up like weeds in a bare field during a month long rain. it took 20 years for pricing to get to a normal low end & for shops to start charging more for a profitable business.

Myself I handled it by buying a used printer that could cut, never did one job with it, lol.. Bought software even now have X7 & still do very little with that even, & even bought brand new cutter, never cut even 10 jobs or really got my moneys worth before it did not work anymore ( does not get command to cut from computer).

So I've been happy with doing everything by hand & getting jobs because of business people are tired of what printers do & the image the finish presents, mind you most are satisfied with the quickness, the quality of finish & other great things about printers & shops etc.

I'm staying with HAND PAINT ONLY, I took the time to learn the skills, I enjoy using them, & the market is even returning more & more since the last 10 years.

The printer will soon be replaced by something new & better, so the price & shop fight that started in cut vinyl, then expanded with printers & the only people making good money are the manufactures & wholesalers & now the sign shops are fighting with everybody else getting into the business & soon a new way of dealing with advertising is fast approaching to the industry as a whole.

Yup love progress, but I stick with what works.

Fear not service your customer well, do your best , learn all you can, be honest, & work hard you be fine in whatever. those that charge to little will fail sooner or later, because be it cut, print, electric light or by hand ya still got to make a profit & can only go so low & that is true for any business.