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Vertical Banding on FLORA

Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
Kaiser said:
Once the profiler has finished im going to do just that. Trying to check if its due to ink limits for now. If the issue hasnt been cleared I will shoot the grid through and check.
Gee artbot... thanks for the guidance mate. You're a star!
Click to expand...

300 x 600, no colour profile, no extract, unidirectional grid as you said. As raw as I could get it. The print is consistent on the x axis however magenta is all over the place every 10mm on the vertical lines. Whether nozzles are firing or not, it seems consistent, just random for magenta on the y axis.
What am I looking for exactly artbot?
 
artbot

artbot

New Member
do you have a scanner there to scan a piece of what it is doing close up? at least now if you want to figure out if it is data related, you can do a data swap with the magenta to see if the issue can jump to a different channel.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
IMG_1277.jpg

artbot said:
do you have a scanner there to scan a piece of what it is doing close up? at least now if you want to figure out if it is data related, you can do a data swap with the magenta to see if the issue can jump to a different channel.
Click to expand...
 
artbot

artbot

New Member
at first i was just "voltage is off". but that would cause the same ghosting above and below this mark. this printer has the km1024, not the km512 right? the reason i ask is i'm wondering if it's the 512 this may be a photo of the bottom or top half of a pass which would explain the isolated ghosting. how much of this ghosting is represented by a pass? is it full head's width, bottom or top of a head, top head or bottom head? in the first photo, you show vertical banding in a patch of purple (requires gobs of magenta). do you get vertical banding in a patch of 100% cyan? also, the data swap.... i'd pull the magenta cable from the slider board and move it to the cyan and vice versa. do the test again. the print will look odd/shifted in that the xy position of the heads will be unknown to the firmware.
i'd also check your voltages/temps on both cyan and magenta heads to see if they are similar. if not, i'd temporarily trade the numbers between them to get an accurate data swap.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
artbot said:
at first i was just "voltage is off". but that would cause the same ghosting above and below this mark. this printer has the km1024, not the km512 right? the reason i ask is i'm wondering if it's the 512 this may be a photo of the bottom or top half of a pass which would explain the isolated ghosting. how much of this ghosting is represented by a pass? is it full head's width, bottom or top of a head, top head or bottom head? in the first photo, you show vertical banding in a patch of purple (requires gobs of magenta). do you get vertical banding in a patch of 100% cyan? also, the data swap.... i'd pull the magenta cable from the slider board and move it to the cyan and vice versa. do the test again. the print will look odd/shifted in that the xy position of the heads will be unknown to the firmware.
i'd also check your voltages/temps on both cyan and magenta heads to see if they are similar. if not, i'd temporarily trade the numbers between them to get an accurate data swap.
Click to expand...

We're actually running CA4s. Im not sure which half head it is causing this but it doesnt extend the whole length. The vertical banding is present on all colours however I can try do an isolated test colour by colour. I dont think data swapping would change anything if the banding is on all colours. Ive sent the head data to nicky to see what he can try and figure out. Ive heard that this might be a problem with the actual printer engineering. Then again. I can only wait and see.
 
artbot

artbot

New Member
my universe just melted. i think everyone on this site was assuming that you are running a flora dedicated flatbed (CET) model style.

so this is an EFI-rastek/daytona/flora build? for instance, i currently have an h700 (h652 aka F1-180UV-BA) what model is it? definitely do a block by block of the CMYK to isolate.

nicky really really really knows about this printer. ice does very much as well.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
Rastek???? Hell no. Same heads yes but the plumbing and circuitry is all still flora. They had flora inks running through the ca4s but the result was a noisy grainy print. We changed to efi ink which gives us a better quality print but we lose in the adhesion. We did think it could have been the reason we were getting banding but the demo printer is running flora ink with the same banding issues.
 
artbot

artbot

New Member
does this floral require the same wave form amplitude (AL # setting on each head) that the efi requires for it's ink? the CA4 head is very finicky if the ink viscosity does not match the AL#.
 
Nameci

Nameci

New Member
Can I butt in?

@Kaiser,

What year was your flatbed manufactured? As I deduce it is a 2512, so basically it is flatbed with 2.5x1.2 m bed or a 4x8.

Since you have mentioned a CA4, this is a Toshiba head machine.

Question:

1. If you move the printing margin on the printer driver, does the vertical band move with the image or stays consistent on a given location.

Two scenarios, if it moves with the margin, it is software related or printhead board related issue. If it stays on a specific location all the time, then the cause is mechanical, it could be the energy chain, slide rails on the carriage beam or a fault on the lines on the raster strip. Have you tried to clean the raster strip already? You can also try to check on the flatness of the bed to check if there is a dip or protrusion on that specific location where there is a vertical band. Looseness of the mounting screws doesn't mean a thing. You need a calibration map of the carriage beam rails to picture out where the imperfection is located. This is true with the flatbed platform as well. Usually, a slight deviation on the tolerance would effect a vertical band. The dots are so tiny that any misalignment on the dot placement would effect a shift on the color.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
Nicky also mentioned this. It could be a waveform issue. I have also told the techs this but they brushed it off.

It could be one issue or a combination of a few. The boards used are the same as EFI however the actual machine design could be causing an issue.
Whereas waveform is concerned, the techs punched in the generic waveform data they got on a chart. I dont know to what extent maybe this data is wrong but I will check with them to see what they or RTZ can do about it. Vibration was also a concern, but I think that that would give me a random pattern. If its mechanical Im stuffed and the printer will need to be replaced. I dont have the skills to re-engineer a carraige arm to that degree of precision. head temperature as Nicky said, could influence the jetting hence the light-dark-light-dark patches. I have my global temperature at 47º which brings my heads to about 44º to 45º. I dont know if there is any way I can influence the individual settings as the heads temperature are water regulated in series. So in other words, same temp all throughout. Then again, I ran the individual colour blocks and I get the same result on all. Obviously some coours you can see the banding more than others but allthroughout the same banding in the same areas at the same intervals. Im baffled with this one. I still think that if the actual arm was better engineered, it would solve the problems. If it is in fact a data setting on the waveforms/temps/voltages, I will breathe a sigh of relief. If it is a design problem, the best I can do is request they change to spectra or km and see if they can get the same solid colour result we need in our company. If that wont fix it or if the quality doesnt meet with our demands, RTZ will have to re engineer the machine. This unfortunately will never be my call.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
Nameci said:
Can I butt in?

@Kaiser,

What year was your flatbed manufactured? As I deduce it is a 2512, so basically it is flatbed with 2.5x1.2 m bed or a 4x8.

Since you have mentioned a CA4, this is a Toshiba head machine.

Question:

1. If you move the printing margin on the printer driver, does the vertical band move with the image or stays consistent on a given location.

Two scenarios, if it moves with the margin, it is software related or printhead board related issue. If it stays on a specific location all the time, then the cause is mechanical, it could be the energy chain, slide rails on the carriage beam or a fault on the lines on the raster strip. Have you tried to clean the raster strip already? You can also try to check on the flatness of the bed to check if there is a dip or protrusion on that specific location where there is a vertical band. Looseness of the mounting screws doesn't mean a thing. You need a calibration map of the carriage beam rails to picture out where the imperfection is located. This is true with the flatbed platform as well. Usually, a slight deviation on the tolerance would effect a vertical band. The dots are so tiny that any misalignment on the dot placement would effect a shift on the color.
Click to expand...

Butt in all you like my friend!!! I will send a box of cigars to whoever can solve this once and for all!!!

From what I do know, this is a 2 year old machine so we're talking about a 2011/2012 build.
When you say shifting the margin on the driver, do you mean actual Page header and margin settings? if so, same place all the time. The strip is always clean. We have our printers all in clean rooms. When I say clean rooms, Im talking Laboratory quality clean rooms. I have had a few manufacturers/distributors here and they all end up photographing the place to use as an example pic to show other installs. The bed and table are completely flat, that has been checked twice. The head unit is perfectly adjusted apparently and the carraige as well as the gantry have been readjusted. Ive had 3 different techs over in 3 weeks each here for 3-5 days at a time. The initial vertical banding was in 2 inch intervals, when second tech adjusted the belt and drive tension he was able to reduce that to 1 inch intervals. (I am not too sure if he reduced to one inch or just added an extra vertical band:ROFLMAO: but I trust his judgement.) He is actually trying to find a solution as we speak so lets see how that goes.

Now that I think of it... when I have an image with complex patches of colour or a photograph that doesnt have a constant colour allthroughout, the banding seems to disappear slightly if not completely in some cases. Its mainly when I have a solid fill. Then again, it could be my eyes, but this has been confirmed by more than one person... I'm going to look into the waveforms and see what any techs can suggest or if RTZ can send them another chart to work with. By the way, whats the lowest/highest point I can set my heads to without causing any serious issues? I usually have my water set to 44 -> 47ºC.

I seriously need to solve this asap. Problem is, my superiors are p!553d off to high heaven as you can imagine and here I am taking the brandt of it all.
 
G

gregwallace

New Member
If the problem was related to waveform/temps then wouldn't the banding move with the print file? You move the file over half an inch and the banding moves half an inch as well. The banding wouldn't be relative to the print files position on the machine. Try slowing the carriage speed down significantly. Speed it up as well. If there are any problems with vibrations then something will change. I know you've already slowed it down with no change. Also in my experiences if your're jets are too hot you will have overspray. Not all of the time but it would be an issue as well.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
gregwallace said:
If the problem was related to waveform/temps then wouldn't the banding move with the print file? You move the file over half an inch and the banding moves half an inch as well. The banding wouldn't be relative to the print files position on the machine. Try slowing the carriage speed down significantly. Speed it up as well. If there are any problems with vibrations then something will change. I know you've already slowed it down with no change. Also in my experiences if your're jets are too hot you will have overspray. Not all of the time but it would be an issue as well.
Click to expand...

I dont have any problems with overspray and the banding isnt relative to the file position. It's always in the same position. Everything mechanical that could be checked, has been checked.
My initial thought was that it could be a mechanical issue because of it being in the same position. After the tech adjusted the tension the banding shifted or better yet, the space between the banding reduced but its always constant. Some spots are lighter than other and its always the same area. I dread the thought that it could be machanical as this is a factor that will only contribute to more downtime.
 
G

gregwallace

New Member
I still think you should increase and decrease the carriage speed significantly. You're problem sounds mechanical and if it is than this would indicate something. The only other thing that I can think of it being is an issue with the encoder strip, sensor, or the the cables/board that communicate the information from the encoder sensor.
 
Kaiser

Kaiser

New Member
gregwallace said:
I still think you should increase and decrease the carriage speed significantly. You're problem sounds mechanical and if it is than this would indicate something. The only other thing that I can think of it being is an issue with the encoder strip, sensor, or the the cables/board that communicate the information from the encoder sensor.
Click to expand...

Trust me.. We've done all of that. We've slowed down the carraige to various speeds. All cables to the board have been checked. Encoder strip is pristine. The encoder sensor is perfectly spaced all the way from home to endplate.
 
Nicky Zhou

Nicky Zhou

PrintLinks
Hi Kaiser.

Have read all the words in this thread, also I got a chance to talk with RTZ by yesterday. Confirmed the PCBs, i mean the electronics system should be okay, since the same system working fine on other printers. Also they are searching some solution from mechanism design, where is the difference from other printers.

From your previous testing image,I also see that random angle jetting on Cyan, Yellow.. I think there should be any other color do this error as well. That maybe the real symptom which you are complained. When jetting random " mis aligned" in printing direction, it generate different color mixture affection, if you see the light area dot mass, and dark area dots solid, properly the reason it is.

If the problem coming from the pulley or belt or bearing, the error circle should be match to the dimension or certain parts. Anyhow, the fastest way to solve the issue on this machine is assume we can switch back those design same as the working fine printer, or maybe major parts the same.

In this situation, I think RTZ has the capability to solve this issue, maybe need a bit time to do so.
 
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