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Warped PVC Sign

AKA TRE

New Member
Hello!

I used 19mm (3/4") black PVC for this dimensional sign on a west facing wall with no overhang. We are not quite a year after installation and I have this major warping going on.. So much that it is popping the letters out of the standoffs. Has anyone had this happen?? I have used this same technique in the past and not had this problem. Material distributer claims that if the edges are not sealed that water could do this... but I am skeptical.

I need help figuring out A) what would cause this and
B) any tips for fixing the existing sign without having to completely replace.

Thank You!
 

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Gino

Premium Subscriber
Of all colors, black will hold the most heat.
Black pvc is really not the correct substrate for a situation like this..... in fact pvc is not the correct substrate of any color like this.

If you wait any longer, they might start to go back to somewhat straight again with cold coming on, but it will just start all over again next spring/summer.

You need to use a better exterior substrate.

If your 'material distributor' knew how this was gonna be used, he/she is at fault for not warning you, but it's hard to balme them, when you're the professional.
 

gnubler

Active Member
I think you'll have to replace with acrylic, or metal if the budget allows. Bummer.

I went through this last year with a nightmare customer wanting black letters on a west facing wall. Asking why I was so much more expensive because she had gotten a quote for thin PVC letters on one of the retail sign websites and I was quoting cut acrylic, I think 1/2 or 3/4". She was the one I had to fire after 18 rounds of proofs for some simple sign letters.
 

AKA TRE

New Member
Of all colors, black will hold the most heat.
Black pvc is really not the correct substrate for a situation like this..... in fact pvc is not the correct substrate of any color like this.

If you wait any longer, they might start to go back to somewhat straight again with cold coming on, but it will just start all over again next spring/summer.

You need to use a better exterior substrate.

If your 'material distributor' knew how this was gonna be used, he/she is at fault for not warning you, but it's hard to balme them, when you're the professional.
Ah yes, thank you Gino for your professional input on this. The fine folks here at Signs101 can always count on you for your kind words of encouragement, uplifting attitude and extensive knowledge base.
 

MikePro

New Member
i'd guess uneven exposures & thermal expansions working against the mounting points and flexing itself around over time ...similiar to cramming an acrylic panel into a tight cabinet retainer.
Never had an issue with painted sintra/komatex/expandedfoamPVC lettering. Our main issue has been guaranteed discoloration when unpainted but I've had studded flush-mounted panels warp at the ends in the past.

Big fan of plate lettering, but we'll never shy-away from PVC outdoors to save our clients a buck.
 

Johnny Best

Active Member
You sometimes get jobs where you screw up, you have to learn by your mistakes. Years from now and someone comes on here posting if black pvc is good to use and you can give your uplifting advice on the subject.
 

visual800

Active Member
Ive used .75 pvc for applications BUT never NEVER use black pvc, painted black is fine however since your letters are "off" the wall I would have used HDU or 1" pvc
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
Ah yes, thank you Gino for your professional input on this. The fine folks here at Signs101 can always count on you for your kind words of encouragement, uplifting attitude and extensive knowledge base.
That was actually fairly tame by Gino's standards, but he is correct, PVC is not an outdoor material, even if some claim to have had no issues. The PVC we get in this industry is "foamed PVC" which has tiny air pockets throughout it to cut down on weight and cost, the air in these pockets expand and shrink with hot/cold cycles and cause this warping.
 

AKA TRE

New Member
That was actually fairly tame by Gino's standards, but he is correct, PVC is not an outdoor material, even if some claim to have had no issues. The PVC we get in this industry is "foamed PVC" which has tiny air pockets throughout it to cut down on weight and cost, the air in these pockets expand and shrink with hot/cold cycles and cause this warping.
Thank You! I appreciate the feedback. I will be definitely not be using black PVC for any exterior lettering in the future. Been making signs for 3 years and still have a lot to learn. Went with this method only due to the customers budget and the fact that the previous shop I worked for used it all the time outside... although I am not sure how those are holding up these days. Lesson learned! Thanks for taking the time to explain the "why" part.
 

JBurton

Signtologist
Most budget friendly option I could come up with is routing black acm, then gluing acrylic blocks to the back with some ASI/Lords/JB weld epoxy, then thread studs into them. Or I guess those quick snaps, if you have the old file you could just rerun it on acm and glue the quick snaps onto the ACM, then it should be a 1 to 1 reinstallation.
 

signbrad

New Member
I started in signs in 1974 and acrylic cutout letters were a common sign industry product. Acrylic was the standard material for cutout graphics (though MDO was often used).

The industry's "best practice" called for cast (not calendered) acrylic. The most common thickness was 3/16-inch, though quarter-inch was not uncommon on larger letters. 1/2-inch and 3/4-inch thicknesses were rarely used—these thicknesses were a needless expense, both in material and fabrication, unless an architect required it.
Mounting was accomplished by gluing pre-threaded acrylic blocks to the backs using an acrylic resin-based glue like Weldon 16.
I believe this is still the industry's "best practice" for cutout graphics.

The problem is that there are so many people in the sign industry these days who have never learned industry standards. There is a race-to-the-bottom mentality now, both in terms of materials and fabrication methods. Many of us feel pressured to compete with goofballs who are trying to reinvent the wheel, all in the interest of being low-bid. The result is the classic "you get what you pay for."

Of course, we can often cheapen a job and "get away with it," if that really is the overriding goal on a job. This is nothing new. We have all tried it. And not every cutout PVC letter is going to self-destruct. But is that a valid argument for deviating from accepted standards? Isn't it true that it takes only one failure to wipe out any cost savings? One of my mentors used to say, "You can do it right, or you can do it over."

...............................

A word about stud-mounting.
There is a reason why the use of pre-threaded glue blocks has been standard procedure for generations.

When you drill and tap holes into the back of acrylic, you introduce thousands of micro-fissures, tiny cracks along the edge of the cut hole. These cracks are typically invisible, though you can often wipe the area of the cut with a solvent and they will become visible as the solvent tries to expand the fissures. As the acrylic ages, and movement is created by temperature changes, every hole becomes a prime spot for a potential crack, especially if a threaded stud is screwed tightly into the hole (a tight fit introduces a destructive stress called creep).
Prethreaded glue blocks completely eliminate this problem. and the labor-intensive drilling and tapping operation is avoided.

Think about this: there is a reason why acrylic faces are never held into lighted signs by screws or other penetrations. The fasteners make the plastic crack. Retainers, on the other hand, allow the face to float undamaged.

What if someone insists on heavy acrylic for cutouts? You can still install them with glue blocks. But what about glue failure? I've installed thousands of acrylic letters in the past 50 or so years. The ONLY glue failures were from acrylic that was not cleaned well enough, or from contaminated glue. Also, the few times I used heavy acrylic thicknesses for cutouts, I also used larger glue blocks when possible. Forcibly removing a properly adhered glue block should break the plastic before it loses its grip.

Brad in Kansas City
 

AKA TRE

New Member
I started in signs in 1974 and acrylic cutout letters were a common sign industry product. Acrylic was the standard material for cutout graphics (though MDO was often used).

The industry's "best practice" called for cast (not calendered) acrylic. The most common thickness was 3/16-inch, though quarter-inch was not uncommon on larger letters. 1/2-inch and 3/4-inch thicknesses were rarely used—these thicknesses were a needless expense, both in material and fabrication, unless an architect required it.
Mounting was accomplished by gluing pre-threaded acrylic blocks to the backs using an acrylic resin-based glue like Weldon 16.
I believe this is still the industry's "best practice" for cutout graphics.

The problem is that there are so many people in the sign industry these days who have never learned industry standards. There is a race-to-the-bottom mentality now, both in terms of materials and fabrication methods. Many of us feel pressured to compete with goofballs who are trying to reinvent the wheel, all in the interest of being low-bid. The result is the classic "you get what you pay for."

Of course, we can often cheapen a job and "get away with it," if that really is the overriding goal on a job. This is nothing new. We have all tried it. And not every cutout PVC letter is going to self-destruct. But is that a valid argument for deviating from accepted standards? Isn't it true that it takes only one failure to wipe out any cost savings? One of my mentors used to say, "You can do it right, or you can do it over."

...............................

A word about stud-mounting.
There is a reason why the use of pre-threaded glue blocks has been standard procedure for generations.

When you drill and tap holes into the back of acrylic, you introduce thousands of micro-fissures, tiny cracks along the edge of the cut hole. These cracks are typically invisible, though you can often wipe the area of the cut with a solvent and they will become visible as the solvent tries to expand the fissures. As the acrylic ages, and movement is created by temperature changes, every hole becomes a prime spot for a potential crack, especially if a threaded stud is screwed tightly into the hole (a tight fit introduces a destructive stress called creep).
Prethreaded glue blocks completely eliminate this problem. and the labor-intensive drilling and tapping operation is avoided.

Think about this: there is a reason why acrylic faces are never held into lighted signs by screws or other penetrations. The fasteners make the plastic crack. Retainers, on the other hand, allow the face to float undamaged.

What if someone insists on heavy acrylic for cutouts? You can still install them with glue blocks. But what about glue failure? I've installed thousands of acrylic letters in the past 50 or so years. The ONLY glue failures were from acrylic that was not cleaned well enough, or from contaminated glue. Also, the few times I used heavy acrylic thicknesses for cutouts, I also used larger glue blocks when possible. Forcibly removing a properly adhered glue block should break the plastic before it loses its grip.

Brad in Kansas City
Thanks Brad! some great advice. I want to produce a quality product that stands up. Failure produces change. I appreciate you taking the time to type all that out I will definitely keep this advice in my back pocket for future projects.
 

MrDav3C

New Member
There is some great advice / knowledge in this post regarding sheet materials. We refer to this issue when explaining different material types to our customers as "thermal movement", not sure the term is correct but it certainly gets the message across.

A number of years ago, we would regularly use foam pvc for external signs but usually only installed within a frame to allow it to expand and contract without any issues.

As the prices in ACM fell it became a more cost effective solution to use this without a frame & has been pretty much standard practice since.

For flat cut letters we would always recommend acrylic, especially for external signage although ACM can work well too, especially if the job requires a specific colour / finish.

Attached is one we completed earlier this year in ACM, & we always use Penloc adhesive for the locators as this as seems to provide an excellent bond regardless of the substrate.
 

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