Well, Reading made the news again......................

[Gino]

Stats are collected the same way, whether you are in the Food Industry, Medical Profession or the Sign Business. It's swayed to wherever they collect their facts. That's nothing new. The old adage, you can't believe everything you read works on both sides of the border and around the world. The only stats ya can really count on.... are the ones you collect yourself. If you can't reach out too far, then, ya gotta ask yourself, look at the people collecting this data. They don't even look trustworthy. Maybe a few here and there good ones will slip in, but it won't be the majority. Too much money is involved and at stake to just be left up to chance.

Here's one. Firestone reported AND proved 5 or 6 decades ago they could produce a tire that lasted virtually forever. That was quickly thrown out because how/why would anyone ever buy another tire, unless they bought a new car ?? The studies were altered and the good ones thrown out. Guess what, we buy tires every 50 or 70k miles. It's all about the mighty buck. Not right vs. wrong or workable vs. non-workable, just how to keep the largest portion of the pie in someone's pocket. Guns, lives, medicine, vehicles, global warming, technology, insurance.... just about anything we need is ruled by statics and we are basically forced to abide by them.

 

[Marlene]

Stats are collected the same way, whether you are in the Food Industry, Medical Profession or the Sign Business. It's swayed to wherever they collect their facts. That's nothing new. The old adage, you can't believe everything you read works on both sides of the border and around the world. The only stats ya can really count on.... are the ones you collect yourself. If you can't reach out too far, then, ya gotta ask yourself, look at the people collecting this data. They don't even look trustworthy. Maybe a few here and there good ones will slip in, but it won't be the majority. Too much money is involved and at stake to just be left up to chance.

yes to how data is collected for some of this as it could be by survey. when it comes to crime since it is based on police reports, not an opinion, not a survey, I would guess that it would be just what it is and that is a collection of police reports complied. are you going to now say that the cops lie and do false reports just so that stats aren't correct? I find that hard to believe. if you are talking about stats about how many people like Pepsi over Coke, that's a survey. if you have reports on how many cases of Pepsi were sold in 2012 and how many cases of Coke, that's a stat you can assume is correct as it is not based on an opinion, just facts of how much of each was sold.

 

[Gino]

yes to how data is collected for some of this as it could be by survey. when it comes to crime since it is based on police reports, not an opinion, not a survey, I would guess that it would be just what it is and that is a collection of police reports complied. are you going to now say that the cops lie and do false reports just so that stats aren't correct? I find that hard to believe. if you are talking about stats about how many people like Pepsi over Coke, that's a survey. if you have reports on how many cases of Pepsi were sold in 2012 and how many cases of Coke, that's a stat you can assume is correct as it is not based on an opinion, just facts of how much of each was sold.

I can tell you first hand, I KNOW the Police falsify reports or file them in a manner in which it won't show up for certain groups. I know of several crimes which took place in the area I live, that have not been reported, let alone solved or filed. They're just left as 'Open' and it makes them look good.

Police files, fire files, medical files and what have you can be filed into different folders and a fire could be called one thing, when to make the department look more efficient might be classified as 'Unknown'. There are all sorts of creative ways departments, organizations and groups do this in order to get cetain grants or loans.... or just not scrutinized if too many things are wrong. I'm not saying they are corrupt. Far from it. They've become creative in their way and it is becoming a fast norm for many places. I belong to a few fire companies and the Social Quarters is generally the keeper for the fire department. I saw, read things and heard things I knew were totally false, and yet the chief would deny it. Not just to me, but to the whole board. So, it's not my imagination. They knew how to make trumped up bills, invoices and other things in order to get state and federal funding. Problem is, they ALL do it. Some are just better at it than others. One assistant chief resigned and told me in a whisper.... watch yourself, these guys are really changing things around. I've heard cops talking here at our shop from sergeants to lieutenants to captains, to chiefs discussing things I shouldn't hear, but they felt safe. I don't use it against them, but like I said, I do know first hand. I had a group of detectives come in here a few years ago about a double murder case and the perpetrator was thought to be next door at my neighbors. They wanted to see my surveillance footage. Unfortunately, where it took place, none of my cameras were trained on the area. However, this was all before anything hit the papers or anything. They discussed the whole thing with me, told me suspects names, what happened, what was going down and all kinds of stuff, I don't think I should've known.

One time a cop was out back of our shop using a weapon that he confiscated from a criminal. He and another cop were shooting this thing in back of my shop. How's that for tampering with evidence ??

Believe me, I cherish the Police and Fire Department. For the most part they are a breed like no others. I know them all. I want them here or at my house instantly should something go wrong, but I know how many of the various departments and precincts work.

 

[HulkSmash]

This is quiet possibly the dumbest debate to date. You go from a small town shoting, to comparing crime rate, to comparing USA TO Canada, to the way stats are recorded, to I don't even know what.

How some of you guys have time to write 46 paragraphs a day on here is beyond me, and this is just 1 thread.

good luck to those in this argument.

 

[Gino]

and then you can follow. Skimming won't get you anywhere. It started out as serious, but has cooled down and how different areas of the world act and react to certain circumstances in basically crime related topics is just a natural course for any topic. No one is here directing traffic, so you jump in wherever you like. Just don't jump in the deep end, if ya can't swim.

 

[Marlene]

This is quiet possibly the dumbest debate to date. You go from a small town shoting, to comparing crime rate, to comparing USA TO Canada, to the way stats are recorded, to I don't even know what.

How some of you guys have time to write 46 paragraphs a day on here is beyond me, and this is just 1 thread.

good luck to those in this argument.​

ah, that's kind of how people have a conversation about a topic and fact check each other. if someone states a fact, do you just blindly believe them without asking where the info came from or how that info was gotten? would you rather have us just call each other poopy heads like a pile of 5 year olds? as to having the time to follow the thread and posts, it's called a break from our tasks of the day and it takes almost 1 minute so there's a whole lot of time left in the day for other things

 

[HulkSmash]

You're comparing USA to Canada, with Americans and Canadians. There will be no clear winner here.

 

[GAC05]

You're comparing USA to Canada, with Americans and Canadians. There will be no clear winner here.

I tend to agree with this.
After all, they use the metric system to tabulate their crime stats - conversion & rounding errors are gonna throw everything off.


wayne k
guam usa

 

[John Butto]

You're comparing USA to Canada, with Americans and Canadians. There will be no clear winner here.

Miss Canada and Miss USA

 

[Baz]

Miss Canada and Miss USA

That doesn't help either side of the argument!!!

I'll chime in my opinion on Canada's gun control. Gun crime in Canada is up in it's large cities. We're talking Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. But the levels are still way lower than US cities of comparable size. This is in the majority caused by gangs and organized crime (if not all). And it's all illegaly done. No one has a right to carry a handgun (police force or diplomatic licenses are the exceptions). Still ... It's not a big problem in my opinion. No one really worries about guns up here. It's not an everyday occurence.

But i would surely love to have the right to blow someone away if i was in danger in my own home. As it is now. Even hurting a perpetrator on your property could have serious consequences for the homeowner. Total Liberal crap in my mind. As far as the shooting in Reading. Congrats to the concerned citizen for taking action. I would not shed a tear for these scumbags. Even if they are someone's son, brother, father or whatever. They were still major losers (i'd call them other names but it will just get censored). The world is a better place without them.

 

[Gino]

I tend to agree with this.
After all, they use the metric system to tabulate their crime stats - conversion & rounding errors are gonna throw everything off.


wayne k
guam usa

:ROFLMAO: I wish I would've thoughta that one !!


We're not comparing. We're all stating facts from all over the place and it's clearly coming up that no one agrees the stats are true, unless you wanna believe a lop-sided conclusion, hence why I said, I'd rather listen to the common people. It might be opinions, but it's still first hand for the most part.

If I wanted to know some facts about how good a section of a county is to build a business, all the municipalities will give me their spin and stats on why theirs is clearly the best choice. Right. I need to see for myself and use their stats as a guide, but not a end-all answer.

 

[player]

:ROFLMAO: I wish I would've thoughta that one !!


We're not comparing. We're all stating facts from all over the place and it's clearly coming up that no one agrees the stats are true, unless you wanna believe a lop-sided conclusion, hence why I said, I'd rather listen to the common people. It might be opinions, but it's still first hand for the most part.

If I wanted to know some facts about how good a section of a county is to build a business, all the municipalities will give me their spin and stats on why theirs is clearly the best choice. Right. I need to see for myself and use their stats as a guide, but not a end-all answer.

Statistics Canada is something you would trust if you understood Canada and how these statistics are derived.
These statistics are not propaganda.

Regardless, guns are not in our culture.

We don't carry guns, we don't worry about people in cars getting road rage and shooting, because there are, for all intents and purposes, no guns. It is not in the minds of Canadians that people may have guns, or someone might come in and go crazy with a gun or anything with guns. They are not around. It is illegal to buy, sell or own or carry except for special circumstances. So it is the complete opposite of your culture. Because there are no guns, there is very little gun violence.

What we do read about rarely is gang gun shootings. There are a few gang related gun deaths a year, but they are young guys with backgrounds that are usually not Canadian born, or they are from the poorest ethnic areas in the larger cities like Toronto. Most of the gangs are divisions of American gangs that are spreading up here.

 

[Marlene]

I'd rather listen to the common people.

that is all well and good but depending on who those common people are for teh most part, your average person is just us and you can see how all over the place we are. give me some good stats complied from reports as yes, they may be off but they are based on reports, not a stance. one of the things I love about Canada is you give someone the finger and all get is the same in return, not a bullet in the head.

 

[qmr55]

Population of Canada: ~35 Million
Population of USA: ~300 Million


/argument ended

 

[Baz]

What we do read about rarely is gang gun shootings. There are a few gang related gun deaths a year, but they are young guys with backgrounds that are usually not Canadian born, or they are from the poorest ethnic areas in the larger cities like Toronto. Most of the gangs are divisions of American gangs that are spreading up here.

Where in Canada do you live in? I regularly hear of gun related violence. As i am typing this i hear on the news about police investigating shots fired last night in the south end of Ottawa. Last August about half a mile from my shop some asshat shot and killed someone working in a daycare.

I know it's nowhere near the levels found in the US but still i find it pretty naive to think that it's all safe up here. I would love to have the right to bear arms ... and arm bears! And as long as we're at it .. Bring back the death penatly!!!

 

[Gino]

Statistics Canada is something you would trust if you understood Canada and how these statistics are derived.
These statistics are not propaganda.

Regardless, guns are not in our culture.

We don't carry guns, we don't worry about people in cars getting road rage and shooting, because there are, for all intents and purposes, no guns. It is not in the minds of Canadians that people may have guns, or someone might come in and go crazy with a gun or anything with guns. They are not around. It is illegal to buy, sell or own or carry except for special circumstances. So it is the complete opposite of your culture. Because there are no guns, there is very little gun violence.

What we do read about rarely is gang gun shootings. There are a few gang related gun deaths a year, but they are young guys with backgrounds that are usually not Canadian born, or they are from the poorest ethnic areas in the larger cities like Toronto. Most of the gangs are divisions of American gangs that are spreading up here.

I'm not arguing Canada vs. US statistics. I'm just saying you have it up there, regardless if the gang members are from the United States or otherwise. It's there and reports tell us all this. It's just more hush/hush than down here. Would you believe almost each and every person pulling the triggers down here are not native to my town of Reading. They come from New York, New Jersey, DC and Miami. I can't pronounce these names at all. They aren't American names. The victims are many times American and that's the problem.... they bring innocent people into their stoopid games. They are gangs and like you, I could care less if they blew each other away, but it has gone from hearing about this like you up there.... almost never..... to in the last 25 years, being daily occurrences. We're becoming almost numb when it happens. Ya hear gun shots and it's nothing, unless you're hit or read about somebody getting it and turns out you knew them.

Anyway, feel safe and cozy while you can, cause it won't last forever. If the gangs down here are already migrating north, it won't take long at all until your cities and towns will need help.

 

[Machinegunkenny]

A closer look at statistics

[h=1]The below post is from http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...ook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/

Facebook post says the U.S. is No. 1 in gun violence. Is it?[/h][h=1]In the wake of the mass shooting in Aurora, Colo., Americans took to social media to express their views on guns and violence.

A reader sent us one Facebook post about the extent of gun violence in the United States. It said, "USA is #1 in gun violence. Nearly 100,000 people get shot every year. That's 270 people a day and 87 dead because of gun violence every day."

In this item, we’ll look at the first part of that claim -- that the "USA is #1 in gun violence."

International comparisons are always tricky, because there are differences from country to country in the definitions being used as well as the reliability and timeliness of the data. The most comprehensive international comparisons we found were published by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime .
Because of limited comparable data, we are defining gun violence as gun homicides.
Let’s look at a few statistics:

Annual homicides from firearms

According to the U.N. figures, the U.S. had 9,146 homicides by firearm in 2009. That year, Colombia and Venezuela both exceeded the U.S. total, with 12,808 and 11,115 firearm deaths, respectively. Three other nations topped the U.S. amount in the most recent year for which data is available: Brazil (34,678 in 2008), Mexico (11,309 in 2010) and Thailand (20,032 in 2000).

So the U.S. ranks high in this category, but not first. Even using the higher U.S. homicide figure of 11,493 in 2010 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (cited here), the U.S. still doesn’t rank first internationally.

Annual homicide rate for firearms

Because the U.S. is so big, it's better to compare the frequency of firearm homicides per capita, usually expressed as firearm homicides per 100,000 in national population.

According to the U.N., the U.S. had 3.0 firearm homicides per 100,000 in population in 2009. But there were 14 other nations that had higher rates in 2009, primarily in Latin America and the Caribbean: Honduras (57.6), Jamaica (47.2), St. Kitts and Nevis (44.4), Venezuela (39.0), Guatemala (38.5), Colombia (28.1), Trinidad & Tobago (27.3), Panama (19.3), Dominican Republic (16.9), Bahamas (15.4), Belize (15.4), Mexico (7.9), Paraguay (7.3) and Nicaragua (5.9). Three other nations had higher rates in 2008: El Salvador (39.9), Brazil (18.1) and Ecuador (12.7).

So the U.S. doesn’t rank no. 1 when firearm homicides are adjusted for population.

Where the U.S. does rank high in firearm violence

The main area where the U.S. exceeds the firearm violence of other nations is in comparison to other affluent nations. Using the U.N. data, European nations -- even former eastern bloc countries -- typically have rates well below 1 per 100,000, or far less than one-third the frequency seen in the U.S. The pattern is similar in other advanced industrialized nations, such as Canada, Taiwan, Japan, Australia and New Zealand.

One study published in 2011 confirms this finding. The study, published in the Journal of Trauma -- Injury Infection & Critical Care, found that firearm homicide rates were 19.5 times higher in the U.S. than in 23 other "high income" countries studied, using 2003 data. Rates for other types of gun deaths were also higher in the U.S., but by somewhat smaller margins: 5.8 times higher for firearm suicides (even though overall suicide rates were 30 percent lower in the U.S.) and 5.2 times higher for unintentional firearm deaths.

Our ruling

The Facebook post says the "USA is #1 in gun violence." That's only true if you compare the U.S. with other affluent nations on a per capita basis.
But widening the comparison to all nations, not just the richest ones, there are at least 17 other countries with higher per capita rates of gun homicides, most of them with rates astronomically higher than the U.S. rate.

And measured by raw gun homicides, the U.S. doesn’t rank first -- at least two and possibly as many as five countries have had more gun homicides in recent years than the U.S. did. On balance, we rate this claim Half True.
[/h]

 

[Machinegunkenny]

No silver bullet

I would like to put my 2 cents in (its not worth much more).

I do not own a gun.
I am all for citizens carrying guns as long as they go through some sort of education program. Sure there are classes for a concealed weapons permit but I feel we need something much more inclusive.
People should have to become familiar with the emotional toll by hearing stories and footage of people whose lives have been affected. From both sides of the gun.
People need to be mentally ready and mature.

In a society where guns are outlawed, it is the outlaws that have the guns. I know this is obvious but you really have to think about that.
If everybody was packing than criminals would think twice before pulling their guns. It is like a child without repercussions for its actions. It will grow up to become a monster.
The police CANNOT respond in time to ALMOST ALL gun related crimes. Are some of you aware of that FACT? NO police will be around when a gun is pulled 99 out of 100 times, so the CALL POLICE comments mean nothing...come on people, why should I have to point that out?

There is no perfect solution, but I can tell you this. I would rather live in a society where there is freedom than one where every lame law one can think of to "protect" us is enforced.
Where does it end? My lord, in New York Bloomberg was trying to ban soda and this was after him trying to ban 32oz. or more in a serving! Laws are incremental. As an American I am all for gun rights BUT with education.
People are disconnected more and more these days. Technology is isolating us despite the communication advances. Not only that but The gap between the rich and poor is ever increasing!
People are getting desperate. There is no easy fix but if our burdens are eased than this will have a dramatic affect in many other areas. I could go on for pages about our smoke and mirrors economic problems that are casting a shadow over the whole globe thanks to evil private banking institutions and their corporate puppets...if you think for a moment that this is not at the root of many problems, than you are part of the problem.

 

[HulkSmash]

Population of Canada: ~35 Million
Population of USA: ~300 Million


/argument ended

lol. gotem

 

[player]

lol. gotem

You sure got me.