What, exactly, makes sign people qualified to design anything?

[Pat Whatley]

A thought occurred to me (again) while working on a logo design last night that I eventually realized was going to be a complete failure. I called my customer this morning and referred her to a freelance designer friend of mine.

My thought was why, exactly, do most sign people (myself included, certainly) assume they have the skills to successfully brand a business? Isn't it irresponsible of 99% of the people in this industry to attempt to create a concise, effective image that will benefit a company long term?

I spent about an hour last week looking through a potential rebranding package for a small grocery store chain. I realized a few minutes into it that I had no idea how to spec half the stuff in it....and I was just looking at the graphics aspect of it. Six years of design school, two ad agency apprenticeships, 19 years in the sign industry and an hour or better almost every day reading and looking at design trends and I'm so far out of the loop these days it's ridiculous. I know a lot of ad agency specs are just fluff to make it look like they know more than the rest of the world but there's a lot of knowledge that goes into that fluff and I don't think most people have it.

Add web design to that. Good lord there are some absolute dog websites out there being cranked out by sign/web/graphic design/house painting guy.

I'm not trying to down anyone in particular here, it's just a general thought I've been bouncing around in my head today. There's a small group of immensely talented people on this site who do world class design work, maybe 8-10 people who each has mastered their niche. No need to name names but I'm willing to bet if everyone made a list a majority of the names would be the same. Then there's the large contingent who makes damn fine signs and banners, by no means award winning work but completely effective and attractive. The kind of work you can do everyday and have happy customers and make a nice living. Of course there's also the lower level of work, some of it from entry level people, some of it from long time vets. It just all boiled down to the thought for me that 99% of us should probably stop with the logo/business card/graphics design part of our businesses.

That's it, just something to think about. Nobody else I mentioned it to would understand it....that's why you people got to hear it.

 

[Circleville Signs]

That's actually a really fair statement Pat.

I'll take it a step further and say that while someone might be really good at a certain type of design work doesn't mean that they are in any way shape or form good at ALL types of design work.

Logo design can be broken into many sub-categories. Some are good at 1, 2, or even 3 of those sub-categories, but very few, if any, are good at ALL of them.

Also, true Branding design encompasses so much more than just putting things together that look good. There is target consumer psychology to take into account for instance.

 

[signswi]

It just all boiled down to the thought for me that 99% of us should probably stop with the logo/business card/graphics design part of our businesses.

Agreed x1000, if you consider yourself a "sign business" then you should concentrate on signs and let identity professionals handle identities. Way too much generalization in this industry. If you find yourself with more identity work than anything else you should be an identity agency not a sign shop, etc. Be pro at what you do pro level work at and hire out for everything else. There's no shame in that it's how economies function.

 

[SignManiac]

Pat that is one of the best post I have ever read by you, dead on correct!

 

[MindsEyeOpen]

I agree 100%. It amazes me how many customers I have had over the years that call to have a sign made for their new business and the conversation goes something like this:

Me: "Do you have a vector or high resolution copy of your logo that you could send me?"

Customer: "Well, we don't have a logo yet. Could you just throw something together for me to take a look at?"

Me: ".............................................."

 

[ddubia]

I too agree 100%. After 30 years in the graphics industry I wonder these same things almost daily. Likely I'd have never posted them in such a well thought out post as you did nor even have the guts to.

But I agree, what do I know?

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Yeah, if you wanna offer design services you either gotta have a good designer in house, or outsource it.

I explain it along these lines... "if you have existing elements in print ready files, and simply need them to be arranged/re-arranged, happy to do for no fee up to 3 times rescaling, changing colour etc... you need something simple typed up, no problem etc... anything extensive... sorry but no." It's honest, straight up, and no one is disappointed (except for those customers who want a $10 logo/sign).

I even go as far as helping them with how to approach a designer with the right lingo if I know they'll appreciate the info enough and use it, and offer my help by offering to deal with the designer free of charge to communicate what is being done and how the files need to be prepped.

You end up with a happy customer, a happy designer (who can end up liking you coz of the way you help out and work as a team with the client - and possibly send more work your way as a result), and a happy you, who ends up doing a good job, and being less stressed.

Myself included when you first start, you think you are helping the customer by providing a one stop shop so you try... but yeah... it doesn't really work when you get busier! The amount of time design/refinement takes, means that you can't successfully produce your work.

Gotta know when and where to draw the line I say.

 

[ProWraps]

reminds me of my rant last night about product reps. vs. sales reps.

glad someone else gets the concept, albeit on a different subject.

 

[Billct2]

I know how I came to be a "graphic designer"....
"Hey we really like that sign (or truck lettering) you designed for us and we want to use it for our logo. Can you get us the artwork?".
Also myriad articles in sign mags and books telling I should do it and how to do it.
And I really don't consider designing a "logo" the same thing as branding a business.
I also got into this business at a time when most sign shops were truly "jack of all trades.." Hell there was another thread here saying most of the sign companies they know don't do installs.

 

[MindsEyeOpen]

Hell there was another thread here saying most of the sign companies they know don't do installs.

.... Really?

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

My goal is to be a really good graphic designer. I've been in the sign biz since 1989. I've always been kinda artsy and had an eye for design. I finally went back to school to finish my degree I started 15 years ago in order to be taken seriously as a "real" graphic designer. I can design the heck out of signs and occasionally a pretty good logo. Flyers, posters, biz cards and artsy stuff, too. Some "artwork" I receive from "real" graphic designers is crap. Some good graphic designers can't design a sign. I don't know where I'm going with this. Just some other observations.

I get offended when people who have no idea how to design think it's soooo easy and knowing a software program is all you need to know to be qualified. I don't know why - I just do.

 

[MatthewTimothy]

this is why I went to school and got my design degree. Even though I am not the best I have better understanding than my counterpart.

 

[SignManiac]

I'm the opposite. I have no education at all, but I know when something is out of my realm of expertise, and have no problem turning away something I am not qualified to do. I design and make signs. I hate building websites so I don't. I don't want to design logos because most people don't want to pay what you should really be charging. I don't like printing mugs and shirts because its too much work for too little profit. So I shy away from these types of things. I'd rather focus on doing a few things well rather than a lot of stuff crappy.

A lot of it is ego driven. Your nephew in law thinks your Calvin sticker is cool and you are lucky to be such an artist. The delusional monster just keeps growing from there.
I should add that most new start up sign shops are hungry and out of desperation, will take on anything and everything. So that fuels the fire.

 

[visual800]

as to opposite your post I would have to say there are others that need to back off signage. Ad agencies, architects, print shops. none of these entities have no business designing sign ESPECIALLY ARCHITECTS!

Since I do quite a bit of cards and brochures and other branding I would say I walk the fine line. I love carrying a sign design over to other aspects of a companies branding. We have all seen what the idiots at the YP can do to a logo in their phone book ads. i have seen how other companies will torture a logo to fit their media, tv included.

I would be inclined to "look" at what all would be required to totally rebrand a business. its a creative challenge that I love. In the event it was too much to deal with I would certainly back out of it

 

[ucmj22]

A thought occurred to me (again) while working on a logo design last night that I eventually realized was going to be a complete failure. I called my customer this morning and referred her to a freelance designer friend of mine.

My thought was why, exactly, do most sign people (myself included, certainly) assume they have the skills to successfully brand a business? Isn't it irresponsible of 99% of the people in this industry to attempt to create a concise, effective image that will benefit a company long term?

I spent about an hour last week looking through a potential rebranding package for a small grocery store chain. I realized a few minutes into it that I had no idea how to spec half the stuff in it....and I was just looking at the graphics aspect of it. Six years of design school, two ad agency apprenticeships, 19 years in the sign industry and an hour or better almost every day reading and looking at design trends and I'm so far out of the loop these days it's ridiculous. I know a lot of ad agency specs are just fluff to make it look like they know more than the rest of the world but there's a lot of knowledge that goes into that fluff and I don't think most people have it.

Add web design to that. Good lord there are some absolute dog websites out there being cranked out by sign/web/graphic design/house painting guy.

I'm not trying to down anyone in particular here, it's just a general thought I've been bouncing around in my head today. There's a small group of immensely talented people on this site who do world class design work, maybe 8-10 people who each has mastered their niche. No need to name names but I'm willing to bet if everyone made a list a majority of the names would be the same. Then there's the large contingent who makes damn fine signs and banners, by no means award winning work but completely effective and attractive. The kind of work you can do everyday and have happy customers and make a nice living. Of course there's also the lower level of work, some of it from entry level people, some of it from long time vets. It just all boiled down to the thought for me that 99% of us should probably stop with the logo/business card/graphics design part of our businesses.

That's it, just something to think about. Nobody else I mentioned it to would understand it....that's why you people got to hear it.

Amen!

 

[Dave Drane]

And then along comes a potential customer that has his new business card in his hand with the logo that the printer "designed". Argghhhh!!!!! I know I am not a graphic designer but really I wish some people would come to me first and then go to the printer.

 

[the graphics co]

We aren't all qualified to do every design, no one is. You need to know your limitations, i have my strengths and weaknesses, and where i come up short i rely on people i trust to help me out to make sure the customer is happy. On some jobs i am beating my head against the wall because i can't get it together, and others i can nail in one shot. There are excercises and practices you can work on to work through blocks and rough spots, but keep in mind, ad agencies have teams of designers all working towards one final proposal, a lot of sign companies have one or two people handling the entire process. So it is hard to compare the two.

 

[Pat Whatley]

...ad agencies have teams of designers all working towards one final proposal, a lot of sign companies have one or two people handling the entire process. So it is hard to compare the two.

It's very easy to compare those two. Ad agencies have what is necessary to achieve the final product almost every time. Sign shops typically do not but that never seems to stop them.

 

[Joe Diaz]

We get certain types of jobs that come into our shop that we turn down all the time. Jobs that we aren't really setup to handle, or jobs that aren't worth the trouble to take on. In our case they are usually due to our limitations when it comes to fabrication, or perhaps anything that has to do with electrical signage. We are just not that type of shop, and there is no shame in saying that.

But really who is more qualified to do design work? I've seen "Ad Agencies" or "Marketing Firms" produce bad designs (or what I thought were bad), I've witnessed folks that have gone to 4+ year art schools that struggle to come up with a good design. Don't get me started on some architects or fine artists. On the flip side, I've seen beautiful design work created by some belonging to all of these different types of professions and that goes for sign artists too.

So why not sign makers? Why worry so much about your job title, and what that means you should or shouldn't do? Why limit yourself? If a sign maker is passionate about design, If they are willing to educate themselves and soak in all the information needed to do good design work, why not? Sign makers can be at an advantage when it comes to design because design isn't about just making something look nice, it's about creating something that looks good while it accomplishes something, while it works for the owner of that design. Having a design work well and accomplish something is the most important part. If it can't do that, then it doesn't matter how good it looks.

We are at an advantage because sign makers should know more about making things legible than about anyone else, We understand taking a design and actually working with it on a physical application. People come to us to purchase a visual product, so we are in a great position to sell design services. I would go as far as saying that it should be our responsibility to make sure we providing good design.

When it comes to sign makers that appear to be bad designers, I think it comes down to two different types. Someone who is new to design, in which case it just takes education and practice to improve, and those who are just lazy and at one time in their career became satisfied with the level they were at.

I also think some sign makers worry too much about just making things "look good" and forget about what is needed to make those same designs "work". Things like legibility, contrast, the right color combinations etc. Those sign makers that focus on just making something work, may not be creating artwork that will be featured on the cover of the trade magazines, but at least they are actually providing a real worthwhile service to their clients. Once you can establish a design that just works, using the basic design principals, you then can take it to that next level, but the second you ignore those principals is the second that design goes from good to bad.

But I say why not be a sign maker that can design?

 

[ucmj22]

It's very easy to compare those two. Ad agencies have what is necessary to achieve the final product almost every time. Sign shops typically do not but that never seems to stop them.

+1

It is very hard for anyone person to be good at all aspects of design. at an Agency, generally they have one or more people that is stellar at each of the following processes : Icon creation, typesetting, page layout, CSS/Java, Flash, Illustration, Photo manipulation. all of those people become experts in those areas and make up for shortfalls by other members of the team. most sign shops only have an average understanding of each.

 

[Pat Whatley]

But I say why not be a sign maker that can design?

Nobody says you can't....you are damn strong proof of that. Hell, I've got more of your work copied into my inspiration morgue than I have of Rick Griffin, Shepherd Fairey and Lou Brooks combined. You and a few others are exceptions, I'm afraid.

 

[Pat Whatley]

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