• I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...

What, exactly, makes sign people qualified to design anything?

Jane Diaz

New Member
John I disagree! I think there are people who have MORE abilities than others but anyone can learn to be better at what they do. STUDY! Look at other people's stuff. What do you like? Analyze WHAT you like and why you like it. Read a book like Mike Stevens "Mastering Layout". Get a book like Gary Anderson's or Dan Antonelli's and again ask yourself "What appeals to me about this sign?"
I'm NOT much of a designer but I can see if something is well designed and discuss why (or why not). I think people can learn to be better than they are now. It just takes practice and WANTING to get better. It's just like playing piano or guitar. You don't get to the big time because you have it "in you". It's practice, practice, practice!!!
 

ForgeInc

New Member
I suggest that it really depends. It depends on one's logo design ability, and who the customer is. If you're a 4 on the 1-10 scale of ability and your customer is a plumber, you might be able to produce something that he'd be tickled with and that would serve him well; but if you're a 6 on the 1-10 scale and the customer is some GIANT global corporation which requires international market research and a long list of highly technical "stuff" that needs to go along with the logo, then you might be in over your head.

Well said.

But, i might change the heading to "what makes ANYONE feel like they design anything." I've been in the design business for 15+ years doing work for many large corporations and you should see some of the portfolios we get when looking for designers. i would say many folks on this forum would be way more qualified than some with a design education.

I blame computers and the proliferation of desktop publishing for much of this. Not saying there weren't bad designs or bad signs 20 years ago, I just don't think there were as many folks attempting it because th execution was too hard.

I can't tell you how many times when meeting new people and they ask what I do... and they say "oh, you do that on the computer, right? What programs do you use?...etc" and I feel like saying, yeah, like Davinci painted the Sistne Chapel with a paintbrush Or Buddy Guy bangs 2 sticks together on the drum. (NOT saying I am ANYWHERE new the levels of those guys, believe me) but too many people feel design and all creative arts for that matter are a matter of learning the tools or know-how. Of course that's some of it, but a very little part. It's more a way of thinking and developing concepts than execution.

It's the ideas high end creatives get paid for, not the tools. That stuff you can't necessarily teach and either you got it, whether you are a sign maker or designer or sculptor, or ya don't. Better and cheaper access to the tools means more people who think they can become masters of them, not knowing it's the ideas that matter.
 

Deaton Design

New Member
I might have said that wrong Jane, please dont take it as me putting someone down in any way. But, there are some skills that you cant "learn" if you arent blessed with a talent in the beginning. Ive been playing piano since I was a kid. Never took a lesson other than music in high school. My sister took lessons, etc. and still never learned to play. I guess Im just saying that you can maybe reach a certain level in anything, but, and taking your son Joe for instance, some do it because they are born to do it.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I might have said that wrong Jane, please dont take it as me putting someone down in any way. But, there are some skills that you cant "learn" if you arent blessed with a talent in the beginning. Ive been playing piano since I was a kid. Never took a lesson other than music in high school. My sister took lessons, etc. and still never learned to play. I guess Im just saying that you can maybe reach a certain level in anything, but, and taking your son Joe for instance, some do it because they are born to do it.
I know exactly what you mean....... some people have a real knack for certain.... or many things, while another book learned person goes through all the steps, but just doesn't have the feel.

That's so true in cooking, dancing, mechanics, art, eye to hand coordination and most of all common sense. Some have a natural gift and others have to work hard at it.... and it always seems to not be quite right.

As Jane said.... you can hone your talents and knowledge in school and learn by the book..... or in the school of hard knocks. I prefer some basic knowledge and build on it from where or whatever I can and blend them into a real jambalaya. Being aware and observant of your surroundings sure helps.
 

signswi

New Member
Typically designers aren't considered seasoned and decent until 10 years in the field post-university in agency world. The flip side of that is they hire and chew through fresh designer meat to do production design constantly, those that survive move up the ranks into graphic designer, senior graphic designer, assistant AD, AD, CD...

Most sign shops have designers that are about at the "production design" level but typically only in one field of concentration (signs) and often with only one particular software. There are plenty that are above that but this is the general trend I've seen. Rick is right that you can improve and get to a better place as he did, as Dan A. did, as Joe Diaz has, etc. but most will not, they just don't have the drive to train their eye and the enormous amount of skill sets needed by a modern designer, especially considering the low rate of pay for designers in the sign industry. The driven ones, once above "production design" levels of skills get out into better industries. Again, a few don't. Those are the exceptions worth emulating if you want to make it at a high level within the sign industry. Personally I think most talented designers struggling in the sign industry (but who LIKE signage) would be better off in environmental design. Similar skill sets, challenges, much better pay, much better clientele.

</words>
 
J

john1

Guest
Great post but as long as customers keep buying your design services, you need to pay your bills and improve as you go at the same time.

I read the Dan Antonelli books on logo design and am always reading trade magazines to sharpen skills. "Real" logo designers have to start somewhere too.

I've expanded to do graphic design for business cards, rack cards, flyers and other print products the last few months and now work with a print shop in town and it's great for when things are slow with the sign/graphic production.
 

Jane Diaz

New Member
John, I didn't think you were putting anyone down. It's just the old art teacher coming out in me. I used to hate when kids would say "I can't do that." My response was always "Did you try?!" Most of the time the answers were "No, but I know I can't." I used to take great joy in taking them step by step through the process and showing them that YES you can!
One of my favorite things to teach was how to do a portrait. "OH I CAN"T DO THAT!!!" By the end, they did it! Maybe it wasn't the BEST portrait, but they saw things they didn't see before and as we repeated the steps they got better! No they probably aren't doing portraits for a living. But they APPRECIATE what goes into it and they realized that if they practiced it REPEATEDLY they got better and better. So it goes with any skill. You CAN improve!

I found this site too. There are so many out there like this. It just gets your brain thinking creatively to look at what others do....
http://www.topdesignmag.com/40-extremely-creative-logos-for-inspiration/
 
Last edited:

signmeup

New Member
We get certain types of jobs that come into our shop that we turn down all the time. Jobs that we aren't really setup to handle, or jobs that aren't worth the trouble to take on. In our case they are usually due to our limitations when it comes to fabrication, or perhaps anything that has to do with electrical signage. We are just not that type of shop, and there is no shame in saying that.

But really who is more qualified to do design work? I've seen "Ad Agencies" or "Marketing Firms" produce bad designs (or what I thought were bad), I've witnessed folks that have gone to 4+ year art schools that struggle to come up with a good design. Don't get me started on some architects or fine artists. On the flip side, I've seen beautiful design work created by some belonging to all of these different types of professions and that goes for sign artists too.

So why not sign makers? Why worry so much about your job title, and what that means you should or shouldn't do? Why limit yourself? If a sign maker is passionate about design, If they are willing to educate themselves and soak in all the information needed to do good design work, why not? Sign makers can be at an advantage when it comes to design because design isn't about just making something look nice, it's about creating something that looks good while it accomplishes something, while it works for the owner of that design. Having a design work well and accomplish something is the most important part. If it can't do that, then it doesn't matter how good it looks.

We are at an advantage because sign makers should know more about making things legible than about anyone else, We understand taking a design and actually working with it on a physical application. People come to us to purchase a visual product, so we are in a great position to sell design services. I would go as far as saying that it should be our responsibility to make sure we providing good design.

When it comes to sign makers that appear to be bad designers, I think it comes down to two different types. Someone who is new to design, in which case it just takes education and practice to improve, and those who are just lazy and at one time in their career became satisfied with the level they were at.

I also think some sign makers worry too much about just making things "look good" and forget about what is needed to make those same designs "work". Things like legibility, contrast, the right color combinations etc. Those sign makers that focus on just making something work, may not be creating artwork that will be featured on the cover of the trade magazines, but at least they are actually providing a real worthwhile service to their clients. Once you can establish a design that just works, using the basic design principals, you then can take it to that next level, but the second you ignore those principals is the second that design goes from good to bad.

But I say why not be a sign maker that can design?
Excellent post Joe.

The Gap was a good example. (It spawned my "one minute logo" series... draw a square, slap in the business' initial and type the name out) Take a look at the Adobe Illustrator logo or the new Pepsi logo.
Those designs are "stoopid simple". I don't see those as out of the league of the average sign shop. Those companies paid hundreds of thousands if not millions for those designs.

How about the logo for Pawn Stars? Brush script for Christ sake! Most sign shops could do better than that. (Someone mentioned Michelangelo... he didn't have a degree in graphic design. I'm guessing he was an apprentice.)

The market place will weed out whether you can design or not. If you can do it, do it... if you suck... it will become apparent and no one will hire you.
 

signswi

New Member
Of course you can learn, the issue becomes are you really doing your customers are service if you're starting at a basic level and realistically have a decade of learning ahead of you before the product is at professional level? What about all those customers in that decade? Were they all well served? Design isn't something you can do on the side, you're either a full time designer or you're not. If you're spending most of your day on sales, print production, finishing, installs, estimates, etc. and only a couple hours on design you really aren't progressing fast enough or even keeping up with the field. It's a tough thing to realize. Much better, from a business standpoint, to hire a professional already at that level. Which is very hard to do on the scraps that many shops take as payment for their products, and which is why we have so many arguments here over whether or not signs and sign design is a commodity (it's not).

Every shop has to find it's own balance but I really hope that while they're doing that they're asking, is this serving my customer or is it just pursuit of a cheap buck?

p.s. Good post Joe
 

Colin

New Member
I used to hate when kids would say "I can't do that." My response was always "Did you try?!" Most of the time the answers were "No, but I know I can't." I used to take great joy in taking them step by step through the process and showing them that YES you can!

Reminds me of that saying: "Whether you think you can or can't, either way, you are right."
 

SignManiac

New Member
It's all about passion for me. You have to be a complete nutcase to work as many years as I have, and still enjoy what you do. It really sucks at times, relationships suffer when all you do is live, breath, eat, sleep signs and all the other related aspects of this field. I sometimes feel I live in designers hell, my eyes suffer the daily barrage of visual blight that is everywhere. But I will still keep on pushing myself. Why? for my own personal satisfaction and a piece well done.

It amazes me that most everyone else I meet in the sign business do not feel the same way? They seem to be detached and it's just a job. I think that's why so much of the stuff being churned out is just poorly chosen fonts stuck on the cheapest substrate available. I personally would rather do anything else for a job than make a boring valueless sign!
 

skyhigh

New Member
Six years of design school, two ad agency apprenticeships, 19 years in the sign industry and an hour or better almost every day reading and looking at design trends and I'm so far out of the loop these days it's ridiculous.
And how does that make you feel Pat?
jk

seriously....
Not a lot of time to read all the feedback you received on this today. I read your post early, then noticed it suddenly it had 55 responses.

Compared to you Pat, I probably shouldn't even own a computer.....but it is what it is. I'll keep doing what I'm doing, and trying to improve along the way.

I'll revisit this when I have more time.
 

signswi

New Member
It's all about passion for me. You have to be a complete nutcase to work as many years as I have, and still enjoy what you do. It really sucks at times, relationships suffer when all you do is live, breath, eat, sleep signs and all the other related aspects of this field. I sometimes feel I live in designers hell, my eyes suffer the daily barrage of visual blight that is everywhere. But I will still keep on pushing myself. Why? for my own personal satisfaction and a piece well done.

It amazes me that most everyone else I meet in the sign business do not feel the same way? They seem to be detached and it's just a job. I think that's why so much of the stuff being churned out is just poorly chosen fonts stuck on the cheapest substrate available. I personally would rather do anything else for a job than make a boring valueless sign!

Here here. If you aren't passionate about something do something else. If you're passionate about design, there are better fields than being in an average sign shop. If your passion is sign design, you need to find a shop with as much passion about quality product as you have OR go into environmental design. If your passion is sign production, hire a passionate designer or outsource to one. If your passion is some combination you're going to have to work EXTREMELY hard but if you're really dedicated and talented you can make it work. If your passion is doing the least amount possible to make the most money off people who need signs, screw you, thanks for ruining an industry and the aesthetics of our society.
 

Deaton Design

New Member
When I think of it, I think it comes down in this business just how good of a businessman or woman you are. There are lots of people out there with fantastic talent that are horrible at running a business. A person with just okay design skills, that can market his or her stuff, and know how to sell, can make a great living doing what we do. To tell you the truth, alot of times, I would give up what I know, or at least part of it, if I could become better at business. I really suck at it.
 

signmeup

New Member
When I think of it, I think it comes down in this business just how good of a businessman or woman you are. There are lots of people out there with fantastic talent that are horrible at running a business. A person with just okay design skills, that can market his or her stuff, and know how to sell, can make a great living doing what we do. To tell you the truth, alot of times, I would give up what I know, or at least part of it, if I could become better at business. I really suck at it.
Amen to that.
 

bob

It's better to have two hands than one glove.
I should think that the original question might well be expanded to "What, exactly, makes anyone qualified to design anything?" 'Anything' being taken to mean some sort of graphic arts product.

There, that plays better. The 'sign people' can be replaced with any sub-set of humanity, be it plumbers, mechanics, or white slavers, and the question is equally as valid.

What are the qualifications to to produce an image? What if an image were to be produced by someone lacking these qualifications, whatever they might be? Would that image be unacceptable but if an identical image were produced by someone 'qualified' it would then suddenly become acceptable?

I recall some years back that a woman had a paint splattered canvas or board or tortilla or something that she claimed was splattered by Jackson Pollack. There was much ado about either proving or disproving that it was a Pollack splatter-work. If it was it would be worth much money. If it were not, it would be worthless.

Same splatter, what difference? Apparently it was far more important who did the splattering than whether or not the splatter was pleasing to behold. That didn't seem to matter. It would seem that old Jackson was qualified in this regard but anyone else was not. Personally, I thought the thing looked like and possessed all of the charm of a well used drop cloth.

'What fools these mortals be' Wm. Shakespeare
 
Top