Last year I designed a logo for a clinic and produced their signs. I've also been outsourcing their business cards and letterheads (which have needed the personnel changed every time) but have had a lot of trouble dealing with the printers and have since found a new reliable printer which I informed the client yesterday. They now want me to supply them the artwork for the cards and letterheads so they can have them printed themselves. They say they have a friend who had a logo designed who had all of this included in the price, as well as the logo reversed, grayscale, JPG format etc. I'm just wondering how others go about logo design, what they charge for the logo and what they get with it, and what incurs extra costs. Also wondering if PMS/Pantone colours should be supplied or is CMYK enough? Any help appreciated.
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What files/artwork to give clients?
- Thread starter JLD984
- Start date
Locals Find!
New Member
If you sold them the logo and its their property you give them all the files and the PMS colors.
If you didn't "sell" them the logo. Well, there are many school of thought on that.
I personally would just hand over the files one way or the other. I have learned that holding a customer hostage to your business isn't good business. They have a tendency to react in a few basic ways...
1. They get a NEW Logo, from someone else (stop doing business with you entirely)
2. They "steal" the artwork and reproduce it anyway (you probably won't sue them)
3. They have already "stolen" your artwork and the new guys wants the originals instead. (See #2)
You shouldn't have started doing any Printing work for them till you had reliable trade shops to work with lined up. You find out how reliable they are not by sending them your clients work, but your own work.
You admittedly screwed the pooch on this one. Suck it up, chalk it up to experience gained, learn from it and let them move on.
If you didn't "sell" them the logo. Well, there are many school of thought on that.
I personally would just hand over the files one way or the other. I have learned that holding a customer hostage to your business isn't good business. They have a tendency to react in a few basic ways...
1. They get a NEW Logo, from someone else (stop doing business with you entirely)
2. They "steal" the artwork and reproduce it anyway (you probably won't sue them)
3. They have already "stolen" your artwork and the new guys wants the originals instead. (See #2)
You shouldn't have started doing any Printing work for them till you had reliable trade shops to work with lined up. You find out how reliable they are not by sending them your clients work, but your own work.
You admittedly screwed the pooch on this one. Suck it up, chalk it up to experience gained, learn from it and let them move on.
Last edited:
2B
Active Member
there is a difference between layouts and logos. make sure you understand the difference and more importantly make sure the client is understanding the difference.
if a customer is looking for a true "LOGO" then there are 2 options
1. they sign a contract stating you release the rights and they are buying (this fee is above and beyond the price of designing/producing the signs, cards, letterhead, etc...) the logo copyrights from you, as you have hold the copyrights because you are the designer.
2. if they do not buy the logo copyright, you own the rights until bought and if it duplicated by any one you will SUE not only them for copyright infringements. Make sure they unstand this and DO NOT BLUFF ABOUT THIS, get a lawyer and follow through with legal actions.
+1 on making sure your outsource locations are of a reliable and dependable source. they will make or break you.
@Adtechia
I disagree with this thought, you are not hold them hostage you are holding YOUR property in your rights.
Plus do you want a customer who is constantly looking for another location to get the products done elsewhere?
Just because they "THINK" it is theirs doesnt mean you role over and hand it to them.
if a customer is looking for a true "LOGO" then there are 2 options
1. they sign a contract stating you release the rights and they are buying (this fee is above and beyond the price of designing/producing the signs, cards, letterhead, etc...) the logo copyrights from you, as you have hold the copyrights because you are the designer.
2. if they do not buy the logo copyright, you own the rights until bought and if it duplicated by any one you will SUE not only them for copyright infringements. Make sure they unstand this and DO NOT BLUFF ABOUT THIS, get a lawyer and follow through with legal actions.
+1 on making sure your outsource locations are of a reliable and dependable source. they will make or break you.
@Adtechia
I disagree with this thought, you are not hold them hostage you are holding YOUR property in your rights.
Plus do you want a customer who is constantly looking for another location to get the products done elsewhere?
Just because they "THINK" it is theirs doesnt mean you role over and hand it to them.
Locals Find!
New Member
I have always felt if my customer is looking elsewhere, I have already lost them. That means I failed at doing the job. I didn't provide the product properly, the price was way off, or some other factor.
I have only lost a handful of customers over the years. Not one of them was lost because, I did my job outstandingly.
It may be your property and, I support that. Only, if you have done your job to an industry standard. If you have failed to do your job properly you don't hold a client hostage. They have the right to move on.
You will always gain a better reputation when you admit failure and, do the right thing. At the very least you will go to bed with a clean conscience that you did the right thing. Sometimes that is the only thing you have to keep you going, is how you will be remembered when your gone.
heyskull
New Member
We have a sign on the office wall stating how much it is for artwork to be supplied and it seems to cause no problems.
Also every time it is requested they have to pay again.
It states that the artwork is ours until paid for.
Pointless trying to blackmail customers to stay.
Where we are situated the new thing is whoever is cheapest wins and I don't play that game.
Our competitor are charging so little at the moment for jobs I can't even buy materials for the same price let alone manufacture and fit them for the same price!
Lately we have lost so many what I thought were loyal customers all based on this low price strategy they are playing.
This under values our product so much it makes the customer think we were ripping them off.
The only one that wins is the customer and in the end two signmakers go out of business!
SC
Also every time it is requested they have to pay again.
It states that the artwork is ours until paid for.
Pointless trying to blackmail customers to stay.
Where we are situated the new thing is whoever is cheapest wins and I don't play that game.
Our competitor are charging so little at the moment for jobs I can't even buy materials for the same price let alone manufacture and fit them for the same price!
Lately we have lost so many what I thought were loyal customers all based on this low price strategy they are playing.
This under values our product so much it makes the customer think we were ripping them off.
The only one that wins is the customer and in the end two signmakers go out of business!
SC
Marlene
New Member
you don't give anything, you sell. when selling a design of a logo or layout, it can be for the purpose of making the sign and then you offer up a flash or CD with files for sale that they can take with them. on it I put a high and low res jpeg in color and black & white and an .eps file. I embed the pantones but also include a list of colors on the CD cover.
Thanks for the replies. I did sell them the logo originally but not the layouts for cards and letterheads so I'm wondering whether I'm entitled to charge extra. Also wondering what everybody is charging for logo design, I know it can vary greatly but I'd love to hear a few examples to go by. Thanks Marlene for sharing what files you supply.
TyrantDesigner
Art! Hot and fresh.
Logos always get sold in my shop. When the purchase outright buys the rights to the logo completely, they get a signed art release from me naming them as sole rights holder, the files in EPS, JPG and TIF as well as any other relevant files. And their files get stored on a backup hard drive in case they lose their files. Replacement files are a $30-60 charge.
Artwork not purchased:
Is mine, unless customer supplied. They don't get files, nor do they get anything other than watermarked proofs. Nothing personal, but I won't spend 2 years with a customer who doesn't want to buy the art then turns around and heads to another shop because I was foolish enough to give them a file or two. If the customer wants their artwork, they will have to pay for the rights to the artwork and then I will treat it like a logo. Even then they get exports, not the actual file.
If the customer supplied the art ... then needs a copy of it ... $30-60 charge for my time.
Everything that a customer wants gets paid for, giving away your intellectual property should never be done ... Sure you can create more, but it devalues the work if you don't.
Artwork not purchased:
Is mine, unless customer supplied. They don't get files, nor do they get anything other than watermarked proofs. Nothing personal, but I won't spend 2 years with a customer who doesn't want to buy the art then turns around and heads to another shop because I was foolish enough to give them a file or two. If the customer wants their artwork, they will have to pay for the rights to the artwork and then I will treat it like a logo. Even then they get exports, not the actual file.
If the customer supplied the art ... then needs a copy of it ... $30-60 charge for my time.
Everything that a customer wants gets paid for, giving away your intellectual property should never be done ... Sure you can create more, but it devalues the work if you don't.
ddubia
New Member
Ever since I saw the article below I've pretty much followed it's suggestions. There's a link to the web page at the end of the article...
What Should You Get From Your Logo Designer
More often than not when asking a client for their current logo, I am provided with a file format that is less than desirable for the project or situation.
Although this can be argued both ways, I’ve seen both instances where it was logo designers responsibility to provide the proper deliverables or the client was using an improper method of creating their logo.
Below is a list of deliverables you should be giving your clients and what clients should be getting from their logo designer.
What should you get: File formats
Delivering a variety of file formats to your clients will not only leave them satisfied in the long term, but any designer who follows you will also be greatful.
Whether you are printing high quality, adding a logo to a website, or inserting your company logo into a Word document, there are various file formats that should be used over the other.
eps
An EPS file, or Encapsulated PostScript file, is a versatile vector format of your logo. In other words, you can resize your logo as big or small as needed without compromising the quality of the logo.
EPS is compatible in a large number of programs and is great for use with printed elements due to its high quality.
What’s it suitable for?
Although it cannot be scaled to a desired size like that of an EPS, JPGs and GIFs are great and preferred for internet use. Due to their smaller file size, they load faster on the web and still look ‘sharp’ to the eye when viewed on a computer monitor. I tend to create these files a little larger than most so my clients are able to downsize as needed.
What’s it suitable for?
A TIFF, or Tagged Image File Format, is a widely supported file format that works in just about any program. A TIFF is of higher quality than JPG or GIF, but not vector-formatted like an EPS.
Typically when sending TIFFs to clients I try to create them at a larger size, so if needed they can resize down or stay with the larger size for more versatility.
In certain cases, these can also be used for higher quality prints, granted they were created at 300 dpi and don’t need to resized larger than delivered.
What’s it suitable for?
This should need no explanation, but provide your clients with a full colored, CMYK file for the printed file formats (EPS, TIFF) and RGB for the web formats (JPG, GIF). This way they don’t experience strange color issues when printing and will save them money with their printers.
Black and Reversed Logos
A well designed logo should not only work in color but also in black and white (reversed-out) versions.
Make certain to convert your in-color logos to both black and reversed-out so your clients logo can work in ANY situation. Trust me they will love you for this one! For the most part I will create a color, black and white version in each of the first 4 file formats.
Favicon / iPhone / iPad icons
Many designers I’ve questioned do not do this, but I’ve always felt like it added a nice touch to my logo services — something that makes me different from the next guy.
A favicon, or “little logo” that appears in the corner of the address bar in a web browser, is a great way to compliment their logo on the web. It only takes a few minutes to create (in most instances) and your clients will be thrilled when they see their miniature logo on their webpage. Also, with the rise of mobile browsing have a iPhone and iPad optimized icon is a nice touch as well.
http://www.thedesigncubicle.com/2009/01/what-should-you-get-from-your-logo-designer/
What Should You Get From Your Logo Designer
More often than not when asking a client for their current logo, I am provided with a file format that is less than desirable for the project or situation.
Although this can be argued both ways, I’ve seen both instances where it was logo designers responsibility to provide the proper deliverables or the client was using an improper method of creating their logo.
Below is a list of deliverables you should be giving your clients and what clients should be getting from their logo designer.
What should you get: File formats
Delivering a variety of file formats to your clients will not only leave them satisfied in the long term, but any designer who follows you will also be greatful.
Whether you are printing high quality, adding a logo to a website, or inserting your company logo into a Word document, there are various file formats that should be used over the other.
eps
An EPS file, or Encapsulated PostScript file, is a versatile vector format of your logo. In other words, you can resize your logo as big or small as needed without compromising the quality of the logo.
EPS is compatible in a large number of programs and is great for use with printed elements due to its high quality.
What’s it suitable for?
- Business cards
- Brochures
- Advertisements
- …anything that will be printed of high quality
Although it cannot be scaled to a desired size like that of an EPS, JPGs and GIFs are great and preferred for internet use. Due to their smaller file size, they load faster on the web and still look ‘sharp’ to the eye when viewed on a computer monitor. I tend to create these files a little larger than most so my clients are able to downsize as needed.
What’s it suitable for?
- Websites
- Online Ads and Banners
- Email marketing and signatures
- anything ‘web-related’
A TIFF, or Tagged Image File Format, is a widely supported file format that works in just about any program. A TIFF is of higher quality than JPG or GIF, but not vector-formatted like an EPS.
Typically when sending TIFFs to clients I try to create them at a larger size, so if needed they can resize down or stay with the larger size for more versatility.
In certain cases, these can also be used for higher quality prints, granted they were created at 300 dpi and don’t need to resized larger than delivered.
What’s it suitable for?
- Microsoft Office programs
- Standard printing for common use (ie. invoices, letterheads, etc.)
This should need no explanation, but provide your clients with a full colored, CMYK file for the printed file formats (EPS, TIFF) and RGB for the web formats (JPG, GIF). This way they don’t experience strange color issues when printing and will save them money with their printers.
Black and Reversed Logos
A well designed logo should not only work in color but also in black and white (reversed-out) versions.
Make certain to convert your in-color logos to both black and reversed-out so your clients logo can work in ANY situation. Trust me they will love you for this one! For the most part I will create a color, black and white version in each of the first 4 file formats.
Favicon / iPhone / iPad icons
Many designers I’ve questioned do not do this, but I’ve always felt like it added a nice touch to my logo services — something that makes me different from the next guy.
A favicon, or “little logo” that appears in the corner of the address bar in a web browser, is a great way to compliment their logo on the web. It only takes a few minutes to create (in most instances) and your clients will be thrilled when they see their miniature logo on their webpage. Also, with the rise of mobile browsing have a iPhone and iPad optimized icon is a nice touch as well.
http://www.thedesigncubicle.com/2009/01/what-should-you-get-from-your-logo-designer/
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I actually would want to use PNGs for web work. PNG files support transparencies and that comes in handy with web work, or really anything that you don't want to have to worry about that white bounding box (or creating any color bounding box).
We rarely give artwork files out without a fee. And I if am giving someone something without a fee, its not going to be particularly useable. But, I also don't often charge for layouts, i just like making things look good. If you want to use it else where, you gotta pay.
S
spmracing
Guest
I always give my clients a .eps of the their logo, but it is included in the original price.. We seem to please our clients and would say about 95% of the clients never use that logo anyways, but its peace of mind knowing they wont come whining later telling us they need it.
TyrantDesigner
Art! Hot and fresh.
This. GIFs are for glitter graphics and bleeding bars. PNGs actually have transparencies that work for web or anything else and are supported by modern browsers. I.E. 6 and under can suck it.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Years ago, when we designed a layout for a truck or a sign for a start up business, it generally became their logo. When a new customer came to us and asked to have his name and business card appearance go on his truck or signs, we did just that, we copied what he gave us. Whether creating a design, logo, layout or just copying whatever he/she gave us.... we just did it and there really wasn't any artwork to go around. It was hand created and kept on file and you pretty much had a customer for life. In fact, I still have customers from over 30 & 35 years ago.
Anyway, even after turnkey computer systems came onto the scene, we still all had pretty much proprietary systems which couldn't be easily recognized by a competitor's software, unless they had the same stuff, but very few people had the money to put out for these early systems. My first system cost $26,000 in 1985 and a year later I upgraded.... and that one cost $38,000. Heck CorelDraw wasn't even around, yet.
Move up to today and everyone and their brother and sister has the same system or can read each others files and then it became needed to figure out a way to keep all these b@stards from stealing each others files.
If you're having to figure out if the customer owns the artwork or not 1 month, 6 months or 2 years later.... in my opinion, IT'S THEIRS.
If you were too stoopid or scared to be upfront with your customer and explain to them your conditions, then like Addie [that was hard to say] said and some others.... you are holding your EX-clients hostage.
In order to conduct a fair and just business, you must let these people know what their possibilities are so they can make an educated decision and not trap them by not making mention of all this creator's right mumbo-jumbo. That copyright act from 1978 or whenever... is a bunch of crap. I can see playing 'chicken' with the big guys, but this thinking of an idea and you know own it whether it was used or not is just ridiculous. It's like all the class 'C' lawyers around town. They can't solve a simple claim without finding a bunch of loopholes and making a case out of a non-crossed 't' or dotted 'i'. Entrapment is what comes to my mind.
Be upfront and avoid this kinda nonsense.
Anyway, even after turnkey computer systems came onto the scene, we still all had pretty much proprietary systems which couldn't be easily recognized by a competitor's software, unless they had the same stuff, but very few people had the money to put out for these early systems. My first system cost $26,000 in 1985 and a year later I upgraded.... and that one cost $38,000. Heck CorelDraw wasn't even around, yet.
Move up to today and everyone and their brother and sister has the same system or can read each others files and then it became needed to figure out a way to keep all these b@stards from stealing each others files.
If you're having to figure out if the customer owns the artwork or not 1 month, 6 months or 2 years later.... in my opinion, IT'S THEIRS.
If you were too stoopid or scared to be upfront with your customer and explain to them your conditions, then like Addie [that was hard to say] said and some others.... you are holding your EX-clients hostage.
In order to conduct a fair and just business, you must let these people know what their possibilities are so they can make an educated decision and not trap them by not making mention of all this creator's right mumbo-jumbo. That copyright act from 1978 or whenever... is a bunch of crap. I can see playing 'chicken' with the big guys, but this thinking of an idea and you know own it whether it was used or not is just ridiculous. It's like all the class 'C' lawyers around town. They can't solve a simple claim without finding a bunch of loopholes and making a case out of a non-crossed 't' or dotted 'i'. Entrapment is what comes to my mind.
Be upfront and avoid this kinda nonsense.