What printer would you recommend?

[IconSigns]

Hi all,

Our shop has an old Mimaki JV3-160 that we've been using for about 10 years or so that is finally getting to be more trouble than it's worth. We're looking at getting a new printer, but the person that bought all our hardware before is gone an no one here is really an expert on printers.

We've heard that Roland is the brand to go with but I'd like to ask those of you that own them which ones you would recommend.

We're a small shop so we're hoping not to spend too much, but I also know you get what you pay for.

For specifics, we currently have a bulk ink system set up using Triangle Solvent Inks, and we only generally print onto rolls of Oracal and 3M vinyl, and Key Banner Material. We'd like to stick with a solvent printer as opposed to switching to a latex printer if possible.

My boss researched a bit and found this one: http://nusignsupply.com/store/roland-soljet-pro-iv-fx-640-64-large-format-printer.html
But I'm wondering what your opinions are.

 

[JoeBoomer]

Latex latex latex!

Switch to latex. It will be the best decision you've ever made. The HP latex printers are great and well worth the very short learning curve. I fought the switch from our HP 9000 to an HP L25500 many years ago. Boy, was I wrong. Seriously, I can't say enough about latex printers. In my opinion solvent is dying technology for small-medium sign businesses.

Now I'm using a HP L26500 and can't wait to get one of the new HP L360's or something similar.

Honestly for me and my experience, Solvent sucks. I dread the days of banding and room temperatures changing my colors. Hoping my overnight prints stayed consistent and not plug a nozzle and ruin the whole roll. Built-in i1 for color consistency. No more $3k printheads, banding, outgassing, drying, no more STINK! The list goes on and on and on.

Going back to solvent is my biggest nightmare. I would rather work as the "syringe guy" at a puppy kill shelter than go back to solvent. I would rather give colonoscopies to homeless people on a 100º day in a VW bus with the windows rolled up and heat on. I would prefer not to use solvent again.


In my opinion....

 

[IconSigns]

How is latex better? I've heard mixed reviews and not very many details so I was just planning to stick with that we already know.

 

[BigfishDM]

Latex is awesome, but if you want to stick with Mimaki then I can help with that purchase as I am a dealer for them. We have a location in Anaheim and would have you come to our LA HQ for a demo, no one can dial you in on all the materials like I can also!

 

[JoeBoomer]

How is latex better? I've heard mixed reviews and not very many details so I was just planning to stick with that we already know.

I guess, if you want a real answer and not just me ranting I should ask you a few questions...


1.) What is the main part of your business (signage, banners, vehicle wraps, fabrics, posters/paper?)
- Are you more of an economy graphic shop or specialty/high-end graphic shop?

2.) How wide do you need to print (54", 61", 63", larger?)

3.) Is the bulk ink-system you use now simply for cost savings or do you actually need that kind of capacity on a regular basis?

4.) Anything else you can think of that will affect your purchase?

5.) Boxers or briefs?

 

[IconSigns]

I guess, if you want a real answer and not just me ranting I should ask you a few questions...


1.) What is the main part of your business (signage, banners, vehicle wraps, fabrics, posters/paper?)
- Are you more of an economy graphic shop or specialty/high-end graphic shop?

2.) How wide do you need to print (54", 61", 63", larger?)

3.) Is the bulk ink-system you use now simply for cost savings or do you actually need that kind of capacity on a regular basis?

4.) Anything else you can think of that will affect your purchase?

5.) Boxers or briefs?

1.) We mostly do signage on various substrates, banners, and vehicle graphics (not many full wraps). We rarely print on paper, we have an old HP for the odd non-vinyl job. As for Economy/High End, I'd say we're in the middle and it depends on the job.

2.) We need to print up to 63" banner and 54" vinyl.

3.) Cost savings

4.) Would we be able to print on the same material we already have in stock? or is it not compatible. (Oracal 3651, 3M 40C, Key Banner 13 oz are our most used)
I've heard Latex prints don't need to be laminated? How does non-laminated latex compare to laminated Solvent (for example oracal 3651 with oraguard 290)
How much maintenance is required compared to a solvent machine?

5.) Haha :Big Laugh

 

[JoeBoomer]

1.) We mostly do signage on various substrates, banners, and vehicle graphics (not many full wraps). We rarely print on paper, we have an old HP for the odd non-vinyl job. As for Economy/High End, I'd say we're in the middle and it depends on the job.

2.) We need to print up to 63" banner and 54" vinyl.

3.) Cost savings

4.) Would we be able to print on the same material we already have in stock? or is it not compatible. (Oracal 3651, 3M 40C, Key Banner 13 oz are our most used)
I've heard Latex prints don't need to be laminated? How does non-laminated latex compare to laminated Solvent (for example oracal 3651 with oraguard 290)
How much maintenance is required compared to a solvent machine?

5.) Haha :Big Laugh

It sounds like latex has got your name all over it. As far as the bulk ink goes, I'm gonna ignore that part for right now because it may not really be necessary. My ink cost (OEM HP 792 inks) is around 18¢/sq. ft. (I print mostly full coverage images and wraps) That cost could be off a bit, I'm really not positive


Materials:

You can print on almost all the same materials as your solvent and a bunch more (with the new HP L360 or similar).

However it takes a little tweaking at first because you are using a lot more heat during the printing / drying / curing process. Really, the Key banner material gave me problems at first because of the heat, but once I got that down it prints like a dream.

Plus my printer has auto-registration for double-sided printing which is a plus if you need that.


Maintenance:

Latex is awesome at this. Very little maintenance required. No daily cleaning. None of those damn printhead diaper things. You can leave the printer for a few weeks and not have problems (might want to check manual on that one). Everything on mine is made out of plastic so it is replaceable basically. Don't let that scare you, it is actually really nice.

Printheads cost like $250 and you can change them almost like changing a desktop print cartridge. I end up changing them about once a year (roughly)

Most latex printers have a i1 or similar color-calibration built in which is awesome if you aren't a color profiling geek. That has been awesome because I don't do much other color profiling and it keeps everything pretty darn consistent.


All the maintenance that I can think of is pretty simple and not very technical. PH alignment, media feed adjustment, color calibration is pretty much automatically done.

Overall, there are more service parts that need to be replaced on a regular basis (ph kit every 4 months, ink kit every 6-12 months, waste ink [4 months]). But, that maintenance is really easy and the cost is offset by the speed, consistency, and little to no downtime on the machine.



SIZE: My L26500 is a 61"; The L360 is 64" I think, and now they have a L370 that can prob. make you breakfast too.





CONS:

- My L260 is slow to warmup and finish the print (like 15 mins warmup from cold, and 3 mins of finishing after print is done). But, it is comes off dry and the print speed is quite a bit faster once it gets going. Overall it's a decent amount faster than my solvent printer on most runs. It is much much faster on less wide material (38" banner, etc.) The new Latex printers (L360, etc.) are much much faster at warmup/finishing and overall print speed.


- You have to typically print higher passes, but the ph moves faster and doesn't need to travel the entire distance (38" banner only travels to edge of material and back). 10 pass latex = 6 pass solvent (between 4 pass and 8 pass)

- Can typically print on more substrates than solvent, but on occasion heat-sensitive material won't work. I've always been able to find a latex-friendly equivalent though.

- I miss the brain-eating solvent fumes


I should work for HP.

If you want to call me and talk, I can fill you in more. Just send me a message and I'll give you my number. Otherwise ask away here.

 

[JoeBoomer]

Durability

Latex seems to be the same as solvent. Maybe a little more durable for non-laminated graphics. I would think the new ones are even more durable, but that is just speculation.

You basically need to laminate the same as you do with solvent.

 

[Posterboy]

What is the curing time on the latex printers like?
I run eco-solvent and had to reprint a couple of poster today because the ink stuck when I took them off the machine.

 

[SightLine]

10 years from your old Mimaki says a LOT about reliability. Why after that would you want to change brands? I'm not going to go into all the latex arguments other than to state one important fact. Latex is NOT any more environmentally friendly than solvent when you consider that latex will need a 220V circuit installed and will use more than double the electricity to run it....

If you stick with Mimaki you will have almost zero learning to do. The newer generation Mimaki machines (including the JV33 and the newest JV150 and JV300) are an order of magnitude easier to deal with than the old JV3. With the single head there are almost zero alignment things to deal with, same menu system, same wide availability of very low cost aftermarket inks (we run Triangle bulk in our JV33), same bulletproof incredibly reliable media takeup, and the newer ones require far far less maintenance. We run ours a lot and really only do a manual cleaning maybe once a month or so. It just does its thing - the current print head in our JV33 is going on 3 years now with a 100% perfect test draw. If you are not often doing things that cause head strikes that are damaging your heads then HP's cheap head argument is pointless when the solvent heads we use last 3 plus years. Also, on the JV33, you can easily swap the head yourself in under and hour. Yes, longer than HP latex but you only need to do it after several years....

Posterboy - that is one big advantage of latex. There is not curing time. I think for the most part you can take a print off a latex machine and press it together ink to ink with no problem. This is not something you can do with solvent inks.

 

[Dennis422]

What is the curing time on the latex printers like?
I run eco-solvent and had to reprint a couple of poster today because the ink stuck when I took them off the machine.

The print is fully cured of the machine (If you have the right profiles and heat settings).
It gets toasty with older printers (25 and 26 series) in the small spaces, but new ones (3 series) has optimizer and one heater instead of two. Less worm up time and less heat needed for the same result.

 

[Andy D]

Personally I would stay with the Mimaki printer too, we have a couple different brands of printers
our Mimaki is by far the most reliable one. Our 1st one was like yours, work perfectly for 5-8 years
and our new one has had one one issue, other than that it has work perfectly for over 4 years now.

We use eco solvent and don't vent our Mimaki & it doesn't put off any noticeable fumes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have heard latex ink doesn't last nearly as long outdoors as solvent.

 

[CMGman]

Latex latex latex!

Switch to latex. It will be the best decision you've ever made. The HP latex printers are great and well worth the very short learning curve. I fought the switch from our HP 9000 to an HP L25500 many years ago. Boy, was I wrong. Seriously, I can't say enough about latex printers. In my opinion solvent is dying technology for small-medium sign businesses.

Now I'm using a HP L26500 and can't wait to get one of the new HP L360's or something similar.

Honestly for me and my experience, Solvent sucks. I dread the days of banding and room temperatures changing my colors. Hoping my overnight prints stayed consistent and not plug a nozzle and ruin the whole roll. Built-in i1 for color consistency. No more $3k printheads, banding, outgassing, drying, no more STINK! The list goes on and on and on.

Going back to solvent is my biggest nightmare. I would rather work as the "syringe guy" at a puppy kill shelter than go back to solvent. I would rather give colonoscopies to homeless people on a 100º day in a VW bus with the windows rolled up and heat on. I would prefer not to use solvent again.


In my opinion....

HP latex 310 is the worst printer when it comes to color consistency. I would like to throw our off a cliff!

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Good info. I bet they're still shopping for one 6 years later.