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What the hell is wrong with us?
- Thread starter Salmoneye
- Start date
JR's
New Member
cdiesel
New Member
Si, I think Jon was more referring to the client that wants a $20 job done for $20. Not the guy who wants the $20 job for $10.
I don't know about you, but we lose money on $20 jobs. Do we still do them? Sure (for the reasons Jon stated above), but there are some things we've done to make them more profitable. We used to have pretty much while-you-wait service for small orders. That's all but gone now. We have certain people on our staff that concentrate on larger jobs and aren't bothered by the smaller stuff. Lastly, and this is a big one, our prices on smaller stuff have gone up. With small stuff, a small dollar amount increase results in a large profit percentage increase.
I don't know about you, but we lose money on $20 jobs. Do we still do them? Sure (for the reasons Jon stated above), but there are some things we've done to make them more profitable. We used to have pretty much while-you-wait service for small orders. That's all but gone now. We have certain people on our staff that concentrate on larger jobs and aren't bothered by the smaller stuff. Lastly, and this is a big one, our prices on smaller stuff have gone up. With small stuff, a small dollar amount increase results in a large profit percentage increase.
Hi guys, thank you to everyone for not flaming me for venting like that this morning. I am just getting in (9:30) from working on a wrap that has gone wrong. lol I am spending my weekend making it right. To clarify, I am a very, very small operation. My shop is in a three car garage that I own and we are just now buying a building to move to. We are not yet making a living as we have invested quite a bit of money. That being said, I never wanted to undercut the market, in the beginning I made several signs 3 times until I was happy with it but I didn't give them away.
J Thompson,
Sure you can use it, my minimum is $65. I had to think this crap up, type it all, post it... Haha, I couldn't resist. You can use anything you like. Thank you.
Jon,
I agree and disagree at the same time. When that happens I don't cut my rate I just give it to them for free. I have no problem with someone giving something away literally for free. A good customer places a large order and magically something else gets included that they were not expecting as a thank you... This sometimes is good business. On an invoice I will write a description of the sign I made and list a price, let's say $100 then on the next line I will list it as a gift to the customer for their business and list a credit or -$100 in red. Then they know I gave them something valuable instead of just selling it to them for $20 and forever after having them think that is all it was worth.
Thanks again guys.
J Thompson,
Sure you can use it, my minimum is $65. I had to think this crap up, type it all, post it... Haha, I couldn't resist. You can use anything you like. Thank you.
Jon,
I agree and disagree at the same time. When that happens I don't cut my rate I just give it to them for free. I have no problem with someone giving something away literally for free. A good customer places a large order and magically something else gets included that they were not expecting as a thank you... This sometimes is good business. On an invoice I will write a description of the sign I made and list a price, let's say $100 then on the next line I will list it as a gift to the customer for their business and list a credit or -$100 in red. Then they know I gave them something valuable instead of just selling it to them for $20 and forever after having them think that is all it was worth.
Thanks again guys.
Jillbeans
New Member
Salmoneye, everything you've said from first post to last in this thread has been 100% excellent.
Hats off to you, sir.
I wish more people would "get it" and stop giving themselves away, and like Gino said, adding nails to the coffin of a dying industry.
What has killed it?
People who get into the biz as an "easy" career, and also long-timers who never priced themselves accordingly or learned how to be salesman as well as craftsmen (that includes myself)
Love.....Jill
Hats off to you, sir.
I wish more people would "get it" and stop giving themselves away, and like Gino said, adding nails to the coffin of a dying industry.
What has killed it?
People who get into the biz as an "easy" career, and also long-timers who never priced themselves accordingly or learned how to be salesman as well as craftsmen (that includes myself)
Love.....Jill
SignManiac
New Member
The sad truth of the matter Salmoneye, is that your words will fall on deaf ears. I've been preaching the same thing to the choir for more that twenty years and if I've managed to reach a dozen with your same logic, then that is a lot. I don't have any exact figures, but the shear volume of new people entering the market due to the ease of pushing a computer button, the cheap price of plotters, and the fact that their are no skill requirements, has inundated this profession with an army of self destructive amateurs who have nothing to offer but cheap price.
Sure they will eventually fail using that model, but the damage has already been done. What was once considered a skill, a craft, a profession, is now nothing more than a commodity...for the most part. There are a hand full of professionals who take great pride in what they do, and sell their talent at a respectable price, but they are few and far between.
I personally don't think we will ever see the problem corrected, ever. As soon as one guy fails, there are five more to take his place. Even with a great forum like Signs 101 reaching so many thousands, trying to educate the newbies, they will not "get it" and keep on giving their work away for very little because of fear. The fear of rejection and out of desperation to make any money they can, no matter what. Even sadder than that is I've known some of the most talented people in this industry cave in to price because of that very same fear. Self doubt, ignorance, financial pressure, intimidation by customers, all of these have to be overcome first before you can stand with confidence and run your business profitably.
This profession has been forever changed and price will forever rule this industry and that is never going to change. We may be lucky to reach a few, but the majority are never going to get it. Sorry to piss in your corn flakes, but this is the way it is. And I've always been an optimist.
Sure they will eventually fail using that model, but the damage has already been done. What was once considered a skill, a craft, a profession, is now nothing more than a commodity...for the most part. There are a hand full of professionals who take great pride in what they do, and sell their talent at a respectable price, but they are few and far between.
I personally don't think we will ever see the problem corrected, ever. As soon as one guy fails, there are five more to take his place. Even with a great forum like Signs 101 reaching so many thousands, trying to educate the newbies, they will not "get it" and keep on giving their work away for very little because of fear. The fear of rejection and out of desperation to make any money they can, no matter what. Even sadder than that is I've known some of the most talented people in this industry cave in to price because of that very same fear. Self doubt, ignorance, financial pressure, intimidation by customers, all of these have to be overcome first before you can stand with confidence and run your business profitably.
This profession has been forever changed and price will forever rule this industry and that is never going to change. We may be lucky to reach a few, but the majority are never going to get it. Sorry to piss in your corn flakes, but this is the way it is. And I've always been an optimist.
Last edited:
Originally Posted by Salmoneye
"It doesn't matter what the material costs. I have to take the order, bs with the customer, receive the file, make sure it is ok to print, add cut lines, check color profile and possibly convert, fill out a work order, make a file, send the job to the rip, load correct material, rip file, print file, have the finished print sit somewhere for 2 days, unload material, there is wasted material making room for the crop marks, laminate, extra laminate for the extra space of the crop marks plus even more waste fore and aft if you are using an actual laminator for such a small piece, time to reload and setup sheet, back to the rip and cut file, unload job, weed, trim, updating work order, calling or emailing to say that it is ready, write invoice, meeting and bs with customer when they pick up, explain how to hinge a 24" sticker to customer, give them a cheap squeegee, collecting and or running credit card, paying credit card fees, giving them a receipt, depositing their payment..."
Great post! I may tweak a few things and post this next to the Signmaking Module.
"It doesn't matter what the material costs. I have to take the order, bs with the customer, receive the file, make sure it is ok to print, add cut lines, check color profile and possibly convert, fill out a work order, make a file, send the job to the rip, load correct material, rip file, print file, have the finished print sit somewhere for 2 days, unload material, there is wasted material making room for the crop marks, laminate, extra laminate for the extra space of the crop marks plus even more waste fore and aft if you are using an actual laminator for such a small piece, time to reload and setup sheet, back to the rip and cut file, unload job, weed, trim, updating work order, calling or emailing to say that it is ready, write invoice, meeting and bs with customer when they pick up, explain how to hinge a 24" sticker to customer, give them a cheap squeegee, collecting and or running credit card, paying credit card fees, giving them a receipt, depositing their payment..."
Great post! I may tweak a few things and post this next to the Signmaking Module.
You 're right, most of those sign co, is like closed tomorrow.
I seen a pair of magnetics for $29.00 if you got the design time, cut or print,apply time, utilities, salary, advertising & material cost, how you expect makey one penny.
I think is better wor at mcdonals then due that?
I seen a pair of magnetics for $29.00 if you got the design time, cut or print,apply time, utilities, salary, advertising & material cost, how you expect makey one penny.
I think is better wor at mcdonals then due that?
Williams Signs
New Member
So does this give people the right to deminish the value of advertising. I tell my customers to look at things this way. My prices maybe high but it is still the cheapest form of advertising. That is what we are selling. I also tell them that not only are their names on their advertising but mine is as well. I do everything I can not produce crap.
Whenever someone comes to me about doing work for them I start by telling them they can get their work done elsewhere for alot less, but if they want to talk quality, I am the best in my area. This is the approach we need to take on this don't haggle on price, haggle with quality. Let people see the value of what they get.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I understand your reasoning. We do things somewhat similar.
When I was a teenager, there was a diner on the outskirts of town that advertised on their sign out front.... "serving the largest cup of coffee anywhere".
We got together and said when we got older, we'd open a diner next door and just buy bigger cups and sue them for false advertising.
Ya gotta be careful when you make a statement and possibly can't back it up if something changes... out of your control.
Vinylman
New Member
I almost missed this post.
I didn't follow the reasoning behind the original heading on the post.
Just now I decided to read the post.
I am Now Inspired!
I am now Informed
I am now laughing my A*$ off!
That was a GREAT post, and spot on.
I have been feeling EXACTLY the same as to the current state of the profession that I have labored over 30 years in.
Many of the newbees that jump in to this industry come with the same attitude as the laid off auto workers that grab their trusty riding mower and decide to "clip" the unsuspecting homeowners that won't pay professional landscapers for their services.
Has the sign profession become the "lawn care" business of the new millennium?
I hope not!
Thanks Salmoneye for bringing some clarity to a much needed subject.
I didn't follow the reasoning behind the original heading on the post.
Just now I decided to read the post.
I am Now Inspired!
I am now Informed
I am now laughing my A*$ off!
That was a GREAT post, and spot on.
I have been feeling EXACTLY the same as to the current state of the profession that I have labored over 30 years in.
Many of the newbees that jump in to this industry come with the same attitude as the laid off auto workers that grab their trusty riding mower and decide to "clip" the unsuspecting homeowners that won't pay professional landscapers for their services.
Has the sign profession become the "lawn care" business of the new millennium?
I hope not!
Thanks Salmoneye for bringing some clarity to a much needed subject.
Colin
New Member
While it sounds solid to maintain a pricing structure, if you're losing out on jobs, it seems like you've got to be competitive, to a point. Last week I was asked for a quote on ONE 24" x 32" coro sign (one sided) which would have been a digital print. I quoted $75.00 A few days went by and I called the guy and he said that he got a price of $53.00 Keep in mind that I am a home-based business, and the lower price came from a shop with a commercial lease space and employees!
So what do I do? Stand my ground and not earn a cent, or match the price and make something, and possibly future work?
I matched the price 'cause I needed the work.
So what do y'all think of having a stated policy like the following:
"We will attempt to meet or beat any written quote by competitors"
So what do I do? Stand my ground and not earn a cent, or match the price and make something, and possibly future work?
I matched the price 'cause I needed the work.
So what do y'all think of having a stated policy like the following:
"We will attempt to meet or beat any written quote by competitors"
OldPaint
New Member
"We will attempt to meet or beat any written quote by competitors"
if your that hungry and DONT VALUE your own abilities.........THEN do this.
seems that the whole business NOW, has come to WHICH DUMMY WILL WORK THE CHEAPEST!!!!!
i aint playin this crap!!!!!!! like i said earlier, when you gota keep the machine runnin just to keep it from plugin up so you wont have the expense of repairing it, then you now HAVE BECOME A SLAVE to your equipment. all you do, is for its welfare.
i see no purpose in GIVING STUFF away!!!! and i guess some of us(that know what our work is worth)will not do as you do.
if your that hungry and DONT VALUE your own abilities.........THEN do this.
seems that the whole business NOW, has come to WHICH DUMMY WILL WORK THE CHEAPEST!!!!!
i aint playin this crap!!!!!!! like i said earlier, when you gota keep the machine runnin just to keep it from plugin up so you wont have the expense of repairing it, then you now HAVE BECOME A SLAVE to your equipment. all you do, is for its welfare.
i see no purpose in GIVING STUFF away!!!! and i guess some of us(that know what our work is worth)will not do as you do.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
To me, you're not doing it right. Couple of things that send up red flags with your scenario.
You only have about $7.00 worth of materials plus your time.
Most shops get anywhere from $4.50 to $13.50 a square foot. So, even at the highest amount, you still are priced over that, unless you stated a shop minimum.
If you have a shop minimum and don't adhere to your own rules, than why even state any rules and just shoot from the hip, if you want to back into a price set by someone else.
Had I been that customer, I would never have given you the job based on one simple fact.... you tried at $75 and missed and without any hesitation you dropped a 1/3 of your price with no questions asked other that what you had to beat.
If I saw a motto on someone's wall with "We will attempt to meet or beat any written quote by competitors" I would probably steer clear of you.
Again Colin, it doesn't matter where your prices are in your given market, but what you need to stay afloat. However, if you appear wishy-washy...... reputations speak for themselves.
I too would rather have 90% of something, than 100% of nothing, but you need to find out how your customers feel about you trying to rake them over the coals the first time and how you propose to make it so much cheaper after the fact.
That motto along with your attitude is not a very good business practice, but maybe it's different where you are and people are more gullible. 
Malkin
New Member
Imagine that 4 months from now you are very busy, this customer (or a friend/acquaintance of same) comes in and wants to place an order with the same specs.
How much would you charge?
Colin
New Member
Gino:
When I called the customer and asked if he wanted to proceed with the sign, he informed me that he got a price of X from XYZ sign shop. I said that I honestly could not understand how they could go through the process of making that one sign for that price, but in order to earn their business I would meet the price. I got the job.
4.50 - 13.50 per square applies to larger orders, and gets lost one small, one-off jobs does it not?
My shop minimum is $20.00
My wife is not well and has been off work for 11 months. The economy is limping along. I need to get whatever jobs I can.
When I called the customer and asked if he wanted to proceed with the sign, he informed me that he got a price of X from XYZ sign shop. I said that I honestly could not understand how they could go through the process of making that one sign for that price, but in order to earn their business I would meet the price. I got the job.
4.50 - 13.50 per square applies to larger orders, and gets lost one small, one-off jobs does it not?
My shop minimum is $20.00
My wife is not well and has been off work for 11 months. The economy is limping along. I need to get whatever jobs I can.
Colin
New Member
As I have it on file, I would probably do it for the same price.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Colin... I am not poking fun or accusing you of anything, but let me show you what I see going on here.
When I called the customer and asked if he wanted to proceed with the sign, he informed me that he got a price of X from XYZ sign shop.
It's good to follow up, but for this size of an order, it sounds a little contrived.
I said that I honestly could not understand how they could go through the process of making that one sign for that price, but in order to earn their business I would meet the price. I got the job.
Regardless of what reasons for this or that.... you still chopped your price by a 1/3. Does not look good from a professional stand point. Color it anyway you wish.
4.50 - 13.50 per square applies to larger orders, and gets lost one small, one-off jobs does it not?
No. Your costs are still your costs. Your shop minimum is what is ridiculous. A shop minimum is in place to protect you.
My shop minimum is $20.00
See last response.
My wife is not well and has been off work for 11 months. The economy is limping along. I need to get whatever jobs I can
This is all baggage that has nothing at all to do with you becoming a lowballer. You are making excuses and not abiding by industry standards, let alone pricing. You are not acting the part of a reputable retailer. You sound more like K-Marts' blue light special going off every-time you over price something.
I understand your wife is out of work and times are tough, but that has nothing to do with your shop policy
Either you get a decent minimum or you price by the pound set up by another shop, but don't complain when the guy you are required to compare to next is a worse lowballer than you. Where do you draw the line ?? Heck, nobody knows.... not even you if you are willing to whore yourself out like this.
Colin
New Member
Once again Gino, you are seeing things only from your own myopic position. It appears that you work at a relatively busy shop, and apply all of your policies and approaches to all other shops. I'd like to see how you respond to customers if you were self-emploted, sitting on your hands and really needing that next job.
I have my limits; if the person said that they could get it for $35.00 or something like that I would have let them go. You fail to see that it the customer who is choosing whether to buy from shop A or B, and unfortunately for all of us, the price is the determining factor for the vast majority of them. Yes, that pisses me off as much as any professional, but it's the way it is. I've attempted ad nausium for 18 years to educate potential customers on the value of good design over shopping for price, but it falls on deaf ears. So I either lose out on buckets more work whilst holding that position, or get scrappy for the work. I can always trun it away if I get really busy.
I have my limits; if the person said that they could get it for $35.00 or something like that I would have let them go. You fail to see that it the customer who is choosing whether to buy from shop A or B, and unfortunately for all of us, the price is the determining factor for the vast majority of them. Yes, that pisses me off as much as any professional, but it's the way it is. I've attempted ad nausium for 18 years to educate potential customers on the value of good design over shopping for price, but it falls on deaf ears. So I either lose out on buckets more work whilst holding that position, or get scrappy for the work. I can always trun it away if I get really busy.