What to profile?

[kffernandez]

hi all! i'm still pretty new here, and was wondering if you guys could answer a very basic question about profiling: "since i'm just starting to do my own profiles, do i need a different profile for different resolutions?"

i already know that the ink+machine+media+ripper[possibly] combination needs a profile. but what about the resolution? i noticed that the profiles in versaworks and flexi have different profiles for different resoultions. but is this actually necessary?

hoping for some input. thanks in advance!

 

[eye4clr]

Yes, you absolutely need a unique profile for each resolution. You can change the number of passes and head speed without effecting color. But resolution has a big impact on the way the ink goes down.

 

[kffernandez]

ahhh.. yes. that makes perfect sense. thanks!
as a follow up question... do i have to start from scratch every single time? or could i get away with just profiling the linearization?

 

[eye4clr]

Depends on how lazy you are.

To do it as best as it can be done, start from scratch each time since the ink restrictions are unique for each media/resolution.

 

[kffernandez]

argh. i was afraid you'd say that. hehe. but thanks for the input. i really appreciate it.
and yes, i will be doing it as best as it can be done.

thanks again!

 

[Rooster]

Yes, you absolutely need a unique profile for each resolution. You can change the number of passes and head speed without effecting color. But resolution has a big impact on the way the ink goes down.

I find using the same profile for different number of passes very definitely changes the color of your prints. My ink limits vary considerably when using the same resolution settings with a different number of passes. You'll find a higher number of passes will allow you to increase your ink limits for a particular media and expand the available color gamut.

Head speed and uni/bi directional print settings seem to not have any real discernible effect by comparison. Although I haven't messed around with it enough to really verify. I just lock it into fast and bi-directional and leave it there.

 

[kffernandez]

@rooster: thanks for the info! with the expansion of the color gamut at least i now have an incentive to profile at higher resolutions other than the "you just have to do it or else" reason.

 

[Rooster]

Here's a sample of how resolution can affect color.

This is 720x720 8 pass:

This is 1440 x 1440 32 pass:

Reds are the worst on a inkjet, so don't expect the same boost of color across the board. Reds always show the most problems and are the most responsive to slowing the printer down and laying down more ink. The improvement in color is worth the wait on some jobs. Other projects might see no discernible improvement.

 

[kffernandez]

wow. look at those differences.

but are those differences caused by improperly using the same profile across 2 different resolutions, or is it because only the higher resolution one was able to reach the particular color gamut that the art was looking for? [due to it's higher ink limits]

 

[Rooster]

Different profiles for each image, same media, same inks, same printer.

What you see is just the difference between laying down less ink really fast (720-8 pass) and laying down more ink really slowly (1440-32 pass). Each profile has been set to use the maximum amount of ink that can be handled at that print speed.

 

[eye4clr]

1440/32 pass....holy crap that's gotta be slow.

 

[Rooster]

1440/32 pass....holy crap that's gotta be slow.

Yup, it's still the same speed as 16 pass uni though.

I only use it for fine art reproductions on canvas where color is most important. I save those jobs up and let it run overnight so it doesn't impact the daily schedule.

720 x 1080 24 pass is pretty close in color gamut and quite a bit faster. It's sure nice to be able to create custom profiles and have all these options!

 

[kffernandez]

i don't know whether i'm supposed to be sad that my usual 720 x 720 would be limited to print at such mediocre quality, or that i now have the potential to print such vibrant colors after the proper profiling of my 32 pass resolutions.

 

[GAC05]

Rooster is that you in the photo?
nice dress......


wayne k
guam usa

 

[eye4clr]

720 x 1080 24 pass is pretty close in color gamut and quite a bit faster. It's sure nice to be able to create custom profiles and have all these options!

Amen brother.

 

[kffernandez]

@rooster - i just made my first 720-8 pass profile. it took me 5 whole hours to do it. but at least i think i did it right. my prints look waaaay better than the generic versaworks profiles. in fact, i think they look almost WYSIWYG after i profiled my monitor.

now, i hope it's not too much to ask, but could you please send me the original "seeing red" file that you used? i would love to see how my printer/ink/media comes up beside yours'. thanks!

on a side note, i think it would be a great topic if we could use a "good" sample print having most if not all of the CMYK color gamut... and then have everybody post their printouts at a given resolution while indicating their machine and inks. has anybody done something like that here?

 

[Rooster]

@rooster - i just made my first 720-8 pass profile. it took me 5 whole hours to do it. but at least i think i did it right. my prints look waaaay better than the generic versaworks profiles. in fact, i think they look almost WYSIWYG after i profiled my monitor.

now, i hope it's not too much to ask, but could you please send me the original "seeing red" file that you used? i would love to see how my printer/ink/media comes up beside yours'. thanks!

on a side note, i think it would be a great topic if we could use a "good" sample print having most if not all of the CMYK color gamut... and then have everybody post their printouts at a given resolution while indicating their machine and inks. has anybody done something like that here?

Here's the file I used in the original thread:

As I mentioned previously, reds show the most problems and react the most favorably to higher resolutions and ink densities. If you use another image that isn't as vibrant and doesn't contain deep saturated reds you might not even see a difference between different settings. That image was chosen specifically to highlight the problem with reds and show what our equipment is capable of compared to the average shop out there.

What I did to create these samples was to take the original file and convert it to sRGB which is what most browsers expect to find for an input profile. Then I did a "convert to profile" in photoshop to the different custom icc profiles. After converting them to the smaller CMYK gamut I did another convert to profile back to sRGB so the browsers would know what to expect again. There's no need to print anything with this method and trying to compare scans of prints posted online is a lesson in futility. All you need for a comparison is photoshop, the profiles and a reference image.

You'll need to put a copy of your custom profiles into the right spot where photoshop can access them. Then you can pre-flight your images to see onscreen what the color will be like at different printer settings. It's unnecessary for the most part but when you run into trouble it can be a lifesaver.

 

[kffernandez]

You'll need to put a copy of your custom profiles into the right spot where photoshop can access them. Then you can pre-flight your images to see onscreen what the color will be like at different printer settings. It's unnecessary for the most part but when you run into trouble it can be a lifesaver.

gee. now that i have a decent profile.. i don't need to actually print a file to see how it's going to look on vinyl?!? wow. haha. this just keeps geting better and better!


@rooster/eye4clr - one thing i forgot to mention tho... i think i skipped a very important part of the profile process. i wasn't able to get a proper limit for my Yellow [i left it at 100 for my reference data printing]. i've seen the both of you mention printing out the CMY ramp to get the proper warm gray balance. but i've searched all my apps, and i can't find a "CMY ramp" anywhere. :'( i'm using profile maker 5.0.5 and Production Manager 8.1v1. could you please tell me how i could do that? btw, this means i need to redo my profile, right?

 

[Rooster]

Yup, change the ink limits and you change the profile.

All I do is print an CMY gray ramp without a profile while I adjust the yellow ink limit. I've found doing it after the linearization is best, but it requires re-linearizing afterward since you've changed the ink limit for the yellow channel Just create a series of patches in a CMYK file in Illustrator or photoshop with equal parts of CMY (10%, 15%, 20% etc.).

I've found when I maximize the ink channel limits, the linearization process will increase the mid-tone density. So neutralizing the gray ramp prior to linearizing will likely cause you to pull too much yellow from the ink limits. The first few times I tried it without linearizing first caused the neutrality to shift into the cooler blues after linearization. With the linear curves applied to the CMK channels while I adjusted yellow ink limit yielded a quicker and more accurate result with fewer test prints.

I'm not convinced neutralizing the inks prior to profiling is necessary. I have many profiles where I didn't do it and haven't had any issues. The profile will neutralize the result anyhow. It just takes some of the load off of the profiling software and prevents the need to re-linearize as often as your baseline settings are neutral. If your machine is in a controlled environment it's even less of an issue. If there's a better reason to do I haven't heard it yet. If your having trouble with neutrals shifting it's probably metameric in nature anyhow, so just use more GCR and use it further down the ramp.

 

[eye4clr]

I'm not convinced neutralizing the inks prior to profiling is necessary.

100% agree.

But here are numerous upsides to achieving the warm grey balance, especially after linearization (before icc). You can output CMYK files without the ICC in play and get REALLY poppy color. Granted it will not be technically accurate. But for somethings, poppy is more important than accurate.