When does a vendor become a competitor?

[BigfishDM]

Just curious how you guys view other companies who sell materials and inks, who also offer printing services. I have always been anti-printing since I am a materials guy, I always just refer clients to other clients. After seeing more and more companies like B2B who offers both materials and printing, I was curious what you guys thought.

Another one of the material/ink vendors on here has started a new division for printing services and I thought it was a bad idea to potentially take business away from your clients. So I thought I would see what everyone thinks about buying materials from what is ultimately one of your competitors. Seems like it would be a big negative but maybe times are different now.

 

[ddarlak]

DOG eat DOG

be the dog that eats...

 

[Solventinkjet]

As a fellow suppler we are of the same opinion. When we have a demo machine in the show room we will very rarely use it to do a trade with a neighborhood business. One time we made parking signs for the mechanic behind our building and got oil changes in return. One time it was the Sushi place across the street and we ate Sushi for lunch for like 2 weeks! But whenever people who aren't in out immediate neighborhood (read block) come in looking for a sign we have a bowl full of business cards from our customers and recommend whoever is closest to the customer in question. It's bad business and kind of shooting yourself in the foot to compete with your customers if you ask me. It's one thing for a wholesaler to go direct to customer since it's a natural progression but your own supplier taking customers? No. Not to mention with some of these vinyl and printer manufacturers, if they find out you are using your demo machine and wholesale pricing to make a profit off sign making and not selling their product, they might just drop you.

 

[AKwrapguy]

Just curious how you guys view other companies who sell materials and inks, who also offer printing services. I have always been anti-printing since I am a materials guy, I always just refer clients to other clients. After seeing more and more companies like B2B who offers both materials and printing, I was curious what you guys thought.

Another one of the material/ink vendors on here has started a new division for printing services and I thought it was a bad idea to potentially take business away from your clients. So I thought I would see what everyone thinks about buying materials from what is ultimately one of your competitors. Seems like it would be a big negative but maybe times are different now.

I think that an interesting question. Look at 3M they have a printing dept. that will print for some clients. I'm not sure if they outsource it or do it in house but I was working for a company that got the install and it was a little frustrating cause it was a pretty big job and they didn't even send finished sets, we had to cut them to size and organize them.

 

[flyplainsdrifta]

makes it hard to justify spending your own money on a vendor who could potentially take clients.

 

[rjssigns]

Only reason a supplier should be printing is if the printer you bought from them is down for service.

Otherwise you can't compete with someone that gets printers, materials and ink at WD pricing.

 

[player]

The industry is continuing to change. Big companies with big machines are able to produce 100+ times more per hour, so the prices will keep dropping and access to cheaper and cheaper signs direct to consumer/businesses will keep growing.

 

[GB2]

Unfortunately, this is becoming a trend with the constantly changing business world. I personally am not in favor of suppliers performing production work of any kind, especially if they should offer that work at a retail level. Even if it is offered at a trade only level I am opposed to the practice. I know there is a local sign supply company who installed a router and is now offering routed material at a trade level to local sign shops that I will not buy anything from because of this. They are really killing the router market not to mention that some of those local sign shops were router customers of mine.

 

[equippaint]

Nobody agrees with it yet everyone keeps buying from them. Too many would step on their own mother if it saved them a nickle.
Sign companies are buying these signs from their distributors, can they not see past their nose? Everyone's cool with it until they start selling direct, same with wholesale printers. This industry has financed their own demise and keep doing it.

 

[ikarasu]

Wholesalers get an unfair advantage because they get the material A LOT cheaper than sign companies.

Let's put it in another perspective.

I could go to 3m, tell them I want 200+ rolls of material and get a steep discount. Then I turn around and sell it to other sign shops in the area at said steep discount, so I could keep my prices low, bypass you as a wholesaler completelly. It defeats the purpose of having a wholesaler and having a sign supplier ... They're two different business's and shouldn't mix.

We buy direct from 3M all the time, our price is a little cheaper than buying from say grimco, but it takes a few weeks to arrive. So all our sign materials bought through them,.all our digital is bought from grimco. I always wondered why 3M will sell direct to customers and bypass wholesalers, it's kind of the same situation IMO.

3M relies on wholesalers to get their product out to the masses... Wholesalers rely on the masses to move said product.... One biting into the other is a shortsighted move that'd hurt everyone in the long run.

 

[TimToad]

The industry is continuing to change. Big companies with big machines are able to produce 100+ times more per hour, so the prices will keep dropping and access to cheaper and cheaper signs direct to consumer/businesses will keep growing.

This type of revenue stream enhancement, vertical integration and the commodification of most consumer goods is just a sign of the times to use a bad metaphor. Did anyone really think that all the offset and web printers out there getting killed by Vistaprint, etc. would just roll over, declare bankruptcy, sell off their buildings, quit and go sell puka shells by the beach?

Our best options for surviving in a model like that is customization and offering products and services that the big operators aren't nimble or flexible enough to offer.

There is a renaissance of hand crafted signs and hand lettering going on. Lots of younger folks who saw the Sign Painters movie and who don't want to be saddled with jobs at graphic design studios, ad agencies, etc. where regular hours, high expectations, rigid office cultures, etc. are the norm, so they are making inroads into our craft.

 

[equippaint]

Wholesalers get an unfair advantage because they get the material A LOT cheaper than sign companies.

Let's put it in another perspective.

I could go to 3m, tell them I want 200+ rolls of material and get a steep discount. Then I turn around and sell it to other sign shops in the area at said steep discount, so I could keep my prices low, bypass you as a wholesaler completelly. It defeats the purpose of having a wholesaler and having a sign supplier ... They're two different business's and shouldn't mix.

We buy direct from 3M all the time, our price is a little cheaper than buying from say grimco, but it takes a few weeks to arrive. So all our sign materials bought through them,.all our digital is bought from grimco. I always wondered why 3M will sell direct to customers and bypass wholesalers, it's kind of the same situation IMO.

3M relies on wholesalers to get their product out to the masses... Wholesalers rely on the masses to move said product.... One biting into the other is a shortsighted move that'd hurt everyone in the long run.

And there you go. Grimco produces signs. Keep shuffling your money over to them.
We help these people get so big that it gets to a point that you have to use them. Kind of hard to blame the suppliers, they couldnt have done it without you. 3m is a whore too with marginal products and many people snowed.

 

[signman315]

This type of revenue stream enhancement, vertical integration and the commodification of most consumer goods is just a sign of the times to use a bad metaphor. Did anyone really think that all the offset and web printers out there getting killed by Vistaprint, etc. would just roll over, declare bankruptcy, sell off their buildings, quit and go sell puka shells by the beach?

Our best options for surviving in a model like that is customization and offering products and services that the big operators aren't nimble or flexible enough to offer.

There is a renaissance of hand crafted signs and hand lettering going on. Lots of younger folks who saw the Sign Painters movie and who don't want to be saddled with jobs at graphic design studios, ad agencies, etc. where regular hours, high expectations, rigid office cultures, etc. are the norm, so they are making inroads into our craft.

Well said...nimble, creative, and on the cutting edge of technique and tricks of the trade are the things that the big companies will always struggle with...no matter how cheap their prices are and how much they flood the market, the talent will rise to the top and always have an advantage over cheap prices...subway sells a lot of acceptable subs, but good ol woody’s market down the street makes a bomb mixed meat and Wanda that works the register is a riot, I buy either on any given day or given situation...two completely different products and enough market niche for both

 

[equippaint]

This type of revenue stream enhancement, vertical integration and the commodification of most consumer goods is just a sign of the times to use a bad metaphor. Did anyone really think that all the offset and web printers out there getting killed by Vistaprint, etc. would just roll over, declare bankruptcy, sell off their buildings, quit and go sell puka shells by the beach?

Our best options for surviving in a model like that is customization and offering products and services that the big operators aren't nimble or flexible enough to offer.

There is a renaissance of hand crafted signs and hand lettering going on. Lots of younger folks who saw the Sign Painters movie and who don't want to be saddled with jobs at graphic design studios, ad agencies, etc. where regular hours, high expectations, rigid office cultures, etc. are the norm, so they are making inroads into our craft.

So just roll over and take the scraps that others dont want?

 

[TimToad]

Well said...nimble, creative, and on the cutting edge of technique and tricks of the trade are the things that the big companies will always struggle with...no matter how cheap their prices are and how much they flood the market, the talent will rise to the top and always have an advantage over cheap prices...subway sells a lot of acceptable subs, but good ol woody’s market down the street makes a bomb mixed meat and Wanda that works the register is a riot, I buy either on any given day or given situation...two completely different products and enough market niche for both

What made me think of the dynamic we face is that scene in Enemy Of The State about how Gene Hackman and Will Smith are the proverbial David and the NSA is the goliath.

 

[TimToad]

So just roll over and take the scraps that others dont want?

Scraps?
Not our shop. We are doing more large, creative, design intensive projects that we enjoy than ever. Our average invoice has quadrupled in the last two years thanks to our going after better jobs, not just more commodity work that anybody can do. We are marketing our expertise and experience, not our equipment and cheapness.

 

[equippaint]

Scraps?
Not our shop. We are doing more large, creative, design intensive projects that we enjoy than ever. Our average invoice has quadrupled in the last two years thanks to our going after better jobs, not just more commodity work that anybody can do. We are marketing our expertise and experience, not our equipment and cheapness.

I personally dont like messing with highly custom stuff, nevermind the fact that Im not good at it. It makes you too tied to your business and finding employees is that much more difficult.
I think you are discounting the strategy in the process of volume work too. Im really into process and efficiency and this is what I market in the cheap sign market. Not my efficiency or ability (both are lacking) but my knowledge of it.
To each their own but I dont think its good for anyone to have huge companies controlling supply and end product.

 

[ikarasu]

And there you go. Grimco produces signs. Keep shuffling your money over to them.
We help these people get so big that it gets to a point that you have to use them. Kind of hard to blame the suppliers, they couldnt have done it without you. 3m is a whore too with marginal products and many people snowed.

The only problem is in Canada where I live, you have the option of Grimco, or Ndgraphics. NDgraphics is 30-40% more than grimco, unless you sweet talk a rep, who you then have to email every time for a price adjustment. Grimco I can buy everything online and I get my discount, no BS ass kissing for a fair price.

Grimco Canada also only produces blanks, no finished products (As far as I'm aware, just did a quick search also, and only USA site came out with pre-made signs)... And their blanks are so overpriced it's not worth it. At least not if you have a CNC... But a shop trying to use their blanks to bid on a job is paying 5x what we pay for ours, so odds are they wont affect our business anyways.


We have 3 major suppliers, the third one is only house brand / Rite aid materials, some oracal... but their oracal costs more than Avery/3M From Grimco because theyr'e a smaller supplier. So again, we're stuck with who we shop from.

I'd love to buy from Ngantz or similar... But they need to break into the Canadian market first.

 

[ddarlak]

You get what you pay for.

Large companies will never be able to produce quality, they can't ,their too big and their employee's just don't care enough.

One of my customers is a large beer company, they print their own signs for just about everything, except when they want something done right, then they call me, and I charge accordingly.

 

[signman315]

I personally dont like messing with highly custom stuff, nevermind the fact that Im not good at it. It makes you too tied to your business and finding employees is that much more difficult.
I think you are discounting the strategy in the process of volume work too. Im really into process and efficiency and this is what I market in the cheap sign market. Not my efficiency or ability (both are lacking) but my knowledge of it.
To each their own but I dont think its good for anyone to have huge companies controlling supply and end product.

Volume output strategy is a great strategy and so is the design intensive custom stuff. The advantage a small company has is the flexibility to achieve both high volume and custom work as needed and make adjustments on the fly. The volume work has lower margins but keeps the wheels turning in between the custom jobs that have huge margins. I'd rather have the people/equipment running making smaller margins than have it collecting dust for no money...so I cater to a number of large national clients and give them great rates because the work is repetitive and easy (can be produced with minimal management and lower paid labor) which basically takes care of itself and is steady/easy work.....in the meantime I have a couple of highly experienced professionals that know the business inside and out and are exceptional designers, they/we focus on the creative/custom work that has better margins but is also more difficult. On the occasion that the volume output team needs a hand the design team will step in and help and vice versa (again something that usually doesn't happen at the big outfits). A large company would struggle structuring their people this way and doesn't have the flexibility or talent to achieve such a thing and they rarely ever will...any time any true talent finds itself in the hands of a large vendor like Grimco or the like it won't take long for them to realize they can be better off elsewhere or on their own. So these big companies can ONLY compete financially and the rest is up for grabs to a good shop with talent and experience, and at least in my experience there is plenty of meat in the market both volume and one off jobs.