When to charge for a sign layout and when to charge for a logo design?

[john1]

I have a small issue i am trying to figure out. I know the pros here can help me and i would greatly appreciate it.

I have a client coming up that is doing a fundraiser for a disease and they want to do a meeting this Friday. The customer is doing this with himself and a few friends who have the disease so they aren't some multi-million dollar corp.

They said they want to get a banner made and a logo design done for the fundraiser event (only one day that i am aware of) that they can put on the banner and t-shirts.

Now i know since it's for a cause they don't have a huge budget (not sure what it is but they said on the phone they are doing this all out of pocket) but how should i approach this since i need to do a layout for them because right now they have nothing, but a logo is needed to go onto the banner as well as shirts.

A sign layout should only be used on the sign in this case the banner but since they want the design on shirts as well and i am sure flyers, a logo design really fit's that description on what to charge them for right?

 

[Rick]

It WOULD be shortsightedness on their part not to pay for a nice logo design as they will be selling shirts to fund the event and using the logo in a flyer to promote the event.

Layout... what is that? We sign designers rarely design a "layout". More times than most we provide them a logo-ized layout or accidental logo. If you layout the banner and the t-shirt, it may very well end up being their logo if you treat it like a layout.

There is no making excuses for the client (not a huge budget, out of pocket, used one day) You make a policy. That policy is whatever you feel comfortable with, but free logo, cheap logo or expensive logo, you will probably be art directed by the client. the same way.

I only design cheap or free in something I personally believe in, others pay full price.

 

[Dave Drane]

good post John. In the days before computers the customer would be very lucky if he got a chance of seeing what his sign would look like. He handed you a piece of paper with some wording on it and you would tell him the unnecessary bits and commence to start prioritizing the layout. A few quick sketches of your own without the customer seeing it, and then striking a few lines and laying out single stroke copy with chalk, because your brushes determined the weight of the lettering.
Sometimes the sign you had done, mysteriously turned up in the yellow pages and printed stuff which was a good thing as you felt rather successful in having your work reproduced. It was just part and parcel of doing a sign for a customer. Then the computer came along with fancy programs that could do blends and tricks and commercial artists suddenly became graphic artists and every job had to be scrutinized by the customer to be sure that he liked it and the modern way signwriting was born.
As for your current client, I would take Rick's advice and charge them for your time in making a design that will be printed and used in newspaper advertising because that is different to doing a one off sign without fuss.

 

[visual800]

This also may be an excellent time for a BIG write off! I take advantage of these small opportunities such as this to rack up a good chunk of change, you can usually write off more than you can charge if they are small non profit

 

[signguy 55]

I think sometimes we feel a "logo" has to be something we've drawn, or created ourselves with much time and labor involved. A "logo" could be nothing more than a particular font for a business name (think Coca Cola, UCLA university, Cal University, Microsoft, Google, Oracal, etc). There is no artwork involved, just a font.

Explain to the customer you will do a nice design, I don't see how it could take more than 20 - 30 minutes to knock something out. Explain if their budget allowed you could do something more complex. For some customers they're tickled to death if the sign is readable and nothing is misspelled.

While I'm at it, I admire Dan Antonelli's work but to me you don't need an illustration on everything to be a logo. Of course some trades and businesses benefit from artwork, but some of the most classic designs in history have been the simplest to create and duplicate. (3M, they don't need a picture of a roll of tape)

 

[tsgstl]

This also may be an excellent time for a BIG write off! I take advantage of these small opportunities such as this to rack up a good chunk of change, you can usually write off more than you can charge if they are small non profit

+1
document it, these things help out come tax time.

 

[Bill Modzel]

Last time I talked about the "write off" with my accountant I was informed that the only deduction is for your stock and labor at cost. In other words, you've done the work and handed it to them, it's "written off". at that point.
You can't mark it up to a retail amount and deduct it again.

I'd get a confirmation on that from your own accountant before trying that.

 

[WeekendDirectionals]

Last time I talked about the "write off" with my accountant I was informed that the only deduction is for your stock and labor at cost. In other words, you've done the work and handed it to them, it's "written off". at that point.
You can't mark it up to a retail amount and deduct it again.

I'd get a confirmation on that from your own accountant before trying that.

Exactly, unless you book the retail price as income.

 

[L Town Graphics]

Last time I talked about the "write off" with my accountant I was informed that the only deduction is for your stock and labor at cost. In other words, you've done the work and handed it to them, it's "written off". at that point.
You can't mark it up to a retail amount and deduct it again.

I'd get a confirmation on that from your own accountant before trying that.

This is true, we just did our business taxes yesterday. Deductions for donations are the actual cost of the materials used not the price you would charge for the product

 

[ThinkRight]

This also may be an excellent time for a BIG write off! I take advantage of these small opportunities such as this to rack up a good chunk of change, you can usually write off more than you can charge if they are small non profit

And if you can not afford that,do it for cost of material.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

But you can write off discounts, uncollected funds, and other income "Losses" where you don't receive the average amount you normally would.

Say you provide a discount on 10% off for 30 days to all your clients.... That 10% difference can be written of as income loss, but it is not a 1:1 ratio which is why our CPA recommends against that method.

 

[AnotherSignManiac]

Normally here for non-profits, if it is something we support (such as american cancer society) we will do an in-kind donation and make sure that our name is on whatever we donate. If it is any other non-for profit we will discount them 15% - 40%

 

[Border]

I think it may be important to clarify one thing first before you decide how to bill this, or "write it off".
Can you legally write it off as a donation if they are not legally registered as a non profit, even though it is for a fundraising event/purposes???

In situations where you can write off something like this, be sure to include the amount in one line of your invoice as if it were charged, then show the discounted amount on another line.
This way, you are covered with something on paper to show at tax time. And at least they will have it in their mind what you would normally charge and it may help to keep them from taking your design time for granted next time around or if they order something else for a regular business purpose.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

This also may be an excellent time for a BIG write off! I take advantage of these small opportunities such as this to rack up a good chunk of change, you can usually write off more than you can charge if they are small non profit

This, love this post. +1

Also make sure they pay something (small number) or with something (trade services are great) for your intellectual property rights ... makes it more kosher in trademarking and registering the logo as theirs and not 'theirs' but really yours.

otherwise if you do something like this, make sure it's fully invoiced and the discount you decide to give on whatever you want is marked as DONATION SERVICES ... write that buddy off for tax time.

edit .. or what border said. ... really should read all the way to the end next time.

 

[axis]

Give them the choice. The budget option would be to bill them for the banner and the layout for the T's and flyers but make it clear that it's a one time use. The design remains your property. If the event catches on and turns into an annual event they can buy additional reproduction rights from you. Or they can go with option 2, the full tilt logo package and own all reproduction rights.

 

[mark galoob]

usually, i just do the layout design for them free with the printing, and if it needs to include a small "logo" then i include that also...anything more than 15-20 minutes of design time i start charging for.

i always let my customer know that certain kinds of design time is free to them because i am honored that they would choose me for their printing needs...

mark galoob

 

[Joe Diaz]

It's sounds as though your client needs a logo, even if it is meant for just an event. So that is what you should sell them before you do any work.

Here is how we handle sign designs or other layouts vs logos. Every time a client comes in needing design work done for any type of project, they are informed that they have the option to purchase that artwork or logo for their use. We tell them this before we do any work, as we are selling the job. That artwork would be put on a disk in several different file formats. Vector and Raster.

If they choose not to purchase the artwork, the design we created for their project remains ours and cannot be used on other things unless they order those products with the design through us.

At any time, they can purchase the design at our logo design rates if they decide at a later date they need to own that artwork. But it's key to discuss this with them before doing any work. If they know or if we can convince them that they are going to use their design as a logo at some point, we have found that they almost always agree to buying a logo first, especially when we sell them on the benefits of purchasing a logo and the logo design process that goes along with that. We tell our customers that a logo is designed to be flexible and work on multiple applications, a sign design is meant for that one application, and that seems to be a good line to up-sell logos. Honestly, since we have started doing it this way our logo sales are through the roof.

Where you get into trouble is when you don't have something like that set in place, a customer comes in and buys a sign, then later asks you to send them the artwork because the believe they own it. And if you didn't really explain to them from the beginning that they don't own it and that you are now wanting to charge them for that art, Then that is when you have an unhappy possible ex-customer.

People are willing to pay good money for logos if you can sell them on the benefits of owning one, and convince them that it isn't a necessarily a cost, but an investment designed to help them make more money.

 

[visual800]

Ok so let's say I did this job and I spent 1 hour on logo. I would turn in a invoice to the owner to sign off on as a donation and I would put maybe $200.00 on it. So thats $200 I can write off and he is a struggling non profit and everything worked out good. I would also hope that he would use me in the suture for banners signs and or tshirts...who know?

 

[allamericantrade]

I think it may be important to clarify one thing first before you decide how to bill this, or "write it off".
Can you legally write it off as a donation if they are not legally registered as a non profit, even though it is for a fundraising event/purposes???

In situations where you can write off something like this, be sure to include the amount in one line of your invoice as if it were charged, then show the discounted amount on another line.
This way, you are covered with something on paper to show at tax time. And at least they will have it in their mind what you would normally charge and it may help to keep them from taking your design time for granted next time around or if they order something else for a regular business purpose.