Need Help White & black ink on transparent?

[graphtec84]

Hi

I would like to print on a transparent/clear matte laminate/film/media. But im not sure if my below requirements is even possible? Didnt buy the printer yet.

• Print not laminated
• Last atleast (longevity) 3 years outdoor without fade, crack etc.
• Print white & black designs (colors arent needed) on transparent, which you shouldnt be able to look through - As if it where Oracal 651
  When printing white, then it goes on a black surface.
  When printing black, then it goes on a white surface. There should not be printet black below the design (only has thin lines)

I have been looking at "EUV Roland UV" & ECO-solvent max 3.
Seems like UV will have issues with not being laminated & ECO-solvent with the colors on transparent. But its hard for me to find info. Hope with some inputs.

 

[White Haus]

You might want to consider Mimaki UCJV or possibly Latex w/ white. I don't have any experience w/ Latex but we are quite happy with our Mimaki UCVJ printer.

White is nice and opaque and should last 3 years outdoors without issues.

 

[graphtec84]

Thank you for your reply.
1. Is the white ink more opaque than on a roland uv printer (if you have testet it)? Same question for black only design?
2. Mimaki UCJV: How opaque is the black, with no color behind it?
3. Have you tryed eco-solvent printers and how opaque there inks can be?

 

[Retro Graphics]

Thank you for your reply.
1. Is the white ink more opaque than on a roland uv printer (if you have testet it)? Same question for black only design?
2. Mimaki UCJV: How opaque is the black, with no color behind it?
3. Have you tryed eco-solvent printers and how opaque there inks can be?

UV inks tend to be more opaque than solvent inks. I think they are also more opaque than latex, but could be wrong on that. The black at 1200 x 1200 is fairly dark, but if you really want it opaque you can simply print additional layers. I have a client who does plexi silhouettes for consoles and when i print, to get the maximum opaqueness i actually print at 1200x1200, 5 layers, black, white, black, white, black. hold it up to the light and the black is like 95% blacked out. Of course this is a special job and they are also small pieces. I will say that when printing with White, it stinks a lot more than printing with Black, and higher resolution printing will smell more. Of course if you ventilate well, the smell dissipates quickly and is supposed to be non toxic. But that doesn't mean sniffing it all day isn't going to give you a minor headache.

 

[graphtec84]

UV inks tend to be more opaque than solvent inks. I think they are also more opaque than latex, but could be wrong on that. The black at 1200 x 1200 is fairly dark, but if you really want it opaque you can simply print additional layers. I have a client who does plexi silhouettes for consoles and when i print, to get the maximum opaqueness i actually print at 1200x1200, 5 layers, black, white, black, white, black. hold it up to the light and the black is like 95% blacked out. Of course this is a special job and they are also small pieces. I will say that when printing with White, it stinks a lot more than printing with Black, and higher resolution printing will smell more. Of course if you ventilate well, the smell dissipates quickly and is supposed to be non toxic. But that doesn't mean sniffing it all day isn't going to give you a minor headache.

Thanks for your reply. I also heard that UV is more opeque than solvent.
1. What machine do you have? Do you know if Mimaki & Roland is the same regarding UV, regarding opaque & durability/longevity?
2. With the ink & machine you use: Have you made any test with outdoor and its longevity? How long it will last. the goal is atleast 3 years without fading, cracking etc.
3. How precise does it add the extra layers? Im guessing it will get some fade/blur effect, since its not hitting 100%. Maybe you have some images of 1 layer black & white on transparent & multiple layers? i guessing no, but have to ask

 

[White Haus]

Thank you for your reply.
1. Is the white ink more opaque than on a roland uv printer (if you have testet it)? Same question for black only design?
2. Mimaki UCJV: How opaque is the black, with no color behind it?
3. Have you tryed eco-solvent printers and how opaque there inks can be?

1. I'm not sure about that - it's been a long time since we've looked at Roland UV printers. I personally wouldn't consider them for our shop.
2. The black is fairly opaque - especially compared to solvent ink. You can build a nice rich black and don't have to worry about ink limits since it's curing on top of the vinyl instead of in it like solvent.
3. We've run Roland eco-solvent printers for 10+ years and you can get a fairly decent opaque black, but will still not be 100% opaque unless backed with white. Solvent white ink can help w/ backing prints on clear but will never be 100% opaque. We had white on our Roland XR-640 but eventually disabled it due to having access to our Mimaki UCJV w/ better white.

Hope that helps. I would strongly suggest requesting the dealers/manufacturers to print your files (with profile/print settings included) and you comparing them to make sure they will achieve what you're looking for. Salespeople will, at the end of the day, tell you anything you want to hear to make the sale. It's up to you to perform due diligence to ensure the specific machine will work for you. Depending on your printing needs, I would also consider ink expiry and consumables - that is one thing I don't love about the Mimaki. Especially with white ink and it being a specialty/nice product. We do sometimes find ourselves throwing out white ink when the printer rejects it 2 months after the expiry date.

Good luck with your search!

 

[graphtec84]

1. I'm not sure about that - it's been a long time since we've looked at Roland UV printers. I personally wouldn't consider them for our shop.
2. The black is fairly opaque - especially compared to solvent ink. You can build a nice rich black and don't have to worry about ink limits since it's curing on top of the vinyl instead of in it like solvent.
3. We've run Roland eco-solvent printers for 10+ years and you can get a fairly decent opaque black, but will still not be 100% opaque unless backed with white. Solvent white ink can help w/ backing prints on clear but will never be 100% opaque. We had white on our Roland XR-640 but eventually disabled it due to having access to our Mimaki UCJV w/ better white.

Hope that helps. I would strongly suggest requesting the dealers/manufacturers to print your files (with profile/print settings included) and you comparing them to make sure they will achieve what you're looking for. Salespeople will, at the end of the day, tell you anything you want to hear to make the sale. It's up to you to perform due diligence to ensure the specific machine will work for you. Depending on your printing needs, I would also consider ink expiry and consumables - that is one thing I don't love about the Mimaki. Especially with white ink and it being a specialty/nice product. We do sometimes find ourselves throwing out white ink when the printer rejects it 2 months after the expiry date.

Good luck with your search!

Thank you so much for all your answers. How is the smell of your Mimaki? it cant be in a small room right

 

[White Haus]

Thank you so much for all your answers. How is the smell of your Mimaki? it cant be in a small room right

You're welcome, happy to help. To be honest it doesn't smell great! Especially when printing white or heavy coverage. We added an air scrubber beside it and have it in a 2500 sqft room and you can still definitely smell the inks when it's printing. If you have the option, I would consider venting outside.

 

[balstestrat]

If you want that no smell but great white, then you are left with L700W.

 

[graphtec84]

If you want that no smell but great white, then you are left with L700W.

Looks like the black (top one, which doesnt have white behind it) is not that great, or am i wrong here?

Black and white is the main two colors i use. maybe others in the future if its possible.

 

[balstestrat]

Looks like the black (top one, which doesnt have white behind it) is not that great, or am i wrong here?

Black and white is the main two colors i use. maybe others in the future if its possible.

That looks just like regular amount of black, something you would print on white substrate. For your use the black should be done with a backlit profile to have a deep black. Or with white/black layer behind it.
If you don't have to print black&white at the same time then it's pretty easy. I personally think it's quite opaque if done right.

Also take into consideration it will look more black when you don't have light behind it. So white board for example would look just like the black you print on white vinyl. In your video there is light behind so it will look nothing like it.

Hard to find examples but here's one for the black:

 

[bigben]

Looks like the black (top one, which doesnt have white behind it) is not that great, or am i wrong here?

Black and white is the main two colors i use. maybe others in the future if its possible.

I have the 700w and use almost more white than the other colors. We are still in testing for different opacity but it really depend of what you want to do. most of our job will print fine with the 60% (6pass) white profile (if it's a spot). For black on clear, if you indeed use a backlit profile it's alot better than your video that is printed with a regular profile or create a profile with more saturation.

As for the opacity of the white, we choose the latex because it was better than UV (more opaque) and did not had the feeling of the extra thickness. The white from solvent wasn't even in the game. I don't know if it's the same thing with the UV, but the latex white ink cartridge empty really compared to the other colors. I imagine it's because it's one cartridge to create the white versus color use a bit of all the color.

With the latex, it take around 15-20min to load the white ink heads when they are stored in the chamber in the bottom of the printer. It also use around 6$ of ink everytime you install the printheads. If you leave the white printheads overnight, it cost you about 2$ of white ink in maintenance. So if you plan to print white the next day, it's cheaper to leave the white printheads overnight. The white ink seems to be on backorder from time to time. So we always keep 2-3 cartridges in stock.

If you have any question about the white ink in the 700w, I'll do my best to answer them.

 

[ikarasu]

I have the 700w and use almost more white than the other colors. We are still in testing for different opacity but it really depend of what you want to do. most of our job will print fine with the 60% (6pass) white profile (if it's a spot). For black on clear, if you indeed use a backlit profile it's alot better than your video that is printed with a regular profile or create a profile with more saturation.

As for the opacity of the white, we choose the latex because it was better than UV (more opaque) and did not had the feeling of the extra thickness. The white from solvent wasn't even in the game. I don't know if it's the same thing with the UV, but the latex white ink cartridge empty really compared to the other colors. I imagine it's because it's one cartridge to create the white versus color use a bit of all the color.

With the latex, it take around 15-20min to load the white ink heads when they are stored in the chamber in the bottom of the printer. It also use around 6$ of ink everytime you install the printheads. If you leave the white printheads overnight, it cost you about 2$ of white ink in maintenance. So if you plan to print white the next day, it's cheaper to leave the white printheads overnight. The white ink seems to be on backorder from time to time. So we always keep 2-3 cartridges in stock.

If you have any question about the white ink in the 700w, I'll do my best to answer them.

How sure are you on your math?

We don't use the whie that often in our latex. I installed the heads to play around with it and finally get some use out of it, I left the heads in over the weekend and when I came back on Monday the white ink was at 0%! It was the ink that was installed when the printer was set up so the lines likely had 20 to 30% in it, but the waiting was empty and the mix container was empty, I was baffled how it used so much... I haven't played with it since so maybe something weird just happened, but at $2 a day that would mean you could leave it in for pretty much 2 months without running out of ink, which isn't too bad.

 

[graphtec84]

I have the 700w and use almost more white than the other colors. We are still in testing for different opacity but it really depend of what you want to do. most of our job will print fine with the 60% (6pass) white profile (if it's a spot). For black on clear, if you indeed use a backlit profile it's alot better than your video that is printed with a regular profile or create a profile with more saturation.

As for the opacity of the white, we choose the latex because it was better than UV (more opaque) and did not had the feeling of the extra thickness. The white from solvent wasn't even in the game. I don't know if it's the same thing with the UV, but the latex white ink cartridge empty really compared to the other colors. I imagine it's because it's one cartridge to create the white versus color use a bit of all the color.

With the latex, it take around 15-20min to load the white ink heads when they are stored in the chamber in the bottom of the printer. It also use around 6$ of ink everytime you install the printheads. If you leave the white printheads overnight, it cost you about 2$ of white ink in maintenance. So if you plan to print white the next day, it's cheaper to leave the white printheads overnight. The white ink seems to be on backorder from time to time. So we always keep 2-3 cartridges in stock.

If you have any question about the white ink in the 700w, I'll do my best to answer them.

Thanks for the reply.
My plan is to print black on a white background & white on black background. I normally use oracal 651.
1. Is there no smell from your machine?
2. How would you compare black and white ink opaque/opacity separately vs oracal 651?

 

[bigben]

How sure are you on your math?

We don't use the whie that often in our latex. I installed the heads to play around with it and finally get some use out of it, I left the heads in over the weekend and when I came back on Monday the white ink was at 0%! It was the ink that was installed when the printer was set up so the lines likely had 20 to 30% in it, but the waiting was empty and the mix container was empty, I was baffled how it used so much... I haven't played with it since so maybe something weird just happened, but at $2 a day that would mean you could leave it in for pretty much 2 months without running out of ink, which isn't too bad.

Well I never left the white head unused more than 12 hours and in that time, I've lost only around 2$ worth ok ink. Maybe it I would have left it more than that it would have drain the ink cartridge.

Thanks for the reply.
My plan is to print black on a white background & white on black background. I normally use oracal 651.
1. Is there no smell from your machine?
2. How would you compare black and white ink opaque/opacity separately vs oracal 651?

1= The only smell I have is heated vinyl. Backlit is the worst. Regular vinyl, no problem.
2= Printing black on a white vinyl will be close to the black oracal 651. But you will need to put a good saturation and figure the right CMYK value to have a rich black without over saturation. Printing white on a black vinyl is doable but it will never be as white as white vinyl. Even at 100% 12 pass. It white, with a really small tint of grey. Your customer will say it's white, but if you put the two vinyl side-by-side, you will see the variation. Oh! and printing that amount of white on black will be relatively expensive.

 

[graphtec84]

Well I never left the white head unused more than 12 hours and in that time, I've lost only around 2$ worth ok ink. Maybe it I would have left it more than that it would have drain the ink cartridge.

1= The only smell I have is heated vinyl. Backlit is the worst. Regular vinyl, no problem.
2= Printing black on a white vinyl will be close to the black oracal 651. But you will need to put a good saturation and figure the right CMYK value to have a rich black without over saturation. Printing white on a black vinyl is doable but it will never be as white as white vinyl. Even at 100% 12 pass. It white, with a really small tint of grey. Your customer will say it's white, but if you put the two vinyl side-by-side, you will see the variation. Oh! and printing that amount of white on black will be relatively expensive.

Then it doesnt sound like the 700w is something for me. Do you know if UV printers is better regarding "printing white on transparent, which is then placed on black surface"?

 

[balstestrat]

Then it doesnt sound like the 700w is something for me. Do you know if UV printers is better regarding "printing white on transparent, which is then placed on black surface"?

If he has only done 100% white, that is not the maximum white.
You should go and test the 260% of white. It will look like white vinyl.

 

[graphtec84]

If he has only done 100% white, that is not the maximum white.
You should go and test the 260% of white. It will look like white vinyl.

Hope he will reply on that. You would say 1 pass with 260% white or what is needed?

 

[balstestrat]

Hope he will reply on that. You would say 1 pass with 260% white or what is needed?

Yes one strike only, so it prints normally just more passes.
Technically on the printer it is 22-pass 260% White -printmode.

 

[graphtec84]

Yes one strike only, so it prints normally just more passes.
Technically on the printer it is 22-pass 260% White -printmode.

Thanks for that.
Is that a pricy thing to add? any idear how somehow can get an idear or what it will cost