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Who's the Bigger Problem?

Discussion in 'Polls' started by Fred Weiss, Dec 10, 2003.

Who's the Bigger Problem?

  1. The client who wants the cheapest sign

    22 vote(s)
    17.3%
  2. The sign maker who fills the need

    105 vote(s)
    82.7%
  1. Fred Weiss

    Fred Weiss Merchant Member

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    Many members are negatively effected by artificially low pricing in their markets for sign work. The issue is complex, but in attempting to boil it down to a chicken vs. egg analogy, the question becomes who is the bigger problem:

    The client who wants the cheapest he can get?

    The sign maker who caters to the demand?
     
    Tags:
  2. THATgirl

    THATgirl Very Active Member

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    both
     
  3. Rick

    Rick Certified Enneadecagon Designer

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    I marked Sign Company, but I think it's both. Ultimatly it's the sign person who shouldn't sell out though.....
     
  4. Lorraine

    Lorraine New Member

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    Nov 17, 2003
    The Signmaker!

    We need to educated the customer!
     
  5. Jeff

    Jeff Member

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    Dec 28, 2003
    Hi all

    I think the answer is neither. There is always going to be cheap customers...and there is always going to be sign people that will cater to them. Very rarely will you educate a cheap customer. If you work at sign making long enough and do good work you will be busy enough that you wont need to worry about the cheapes. Let the cheapy sign shops have them.

    My 1.999999999 cents worth

    Jeff
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. jberte

    jberte New Member

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    Dec 26, 2003
    hello all - although i marked signmaker, i tend to agree with jeff; i charge a fair price for my work and don't have time to dicker with the customer who wants mona lisa work for funny page prices. there will always be a string of somebody's out there who will cheapen their work and cater to them but i'd far prefer to spend my time producing quality work at a fair price that my customers and i can both live with. :glasses:
     
  7. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    Oct 10, 2014
    Florida
    Dont shoot me for saying this but Its noones fault that it happens but I do blame the business owner for not adjusting to changing markets. Every business deals with this, the ones who succeed are the ones who adapt because its not as if its a new problem. When vinyl cutters came out, it depressed pricing for hand painters, then the pc became affordable and started squeezing the vinyl guys, then large format printers came along and squeezed screen printing, the printers became cheap (todays market) and along comes flatbeds to print d2s. The businesses that are early adopters are rewarded. But its the early adopters that drive the market prices lower, not because theyre working for nothing but theyve increased productivity. You cant fairly blame customers or businesses for their pricing and cant point fingers at the guy that works out of his garage and grabs some market share. You have to look at your own position and what you need to do to stay ahead whether it be a niche, more complex high end products or equipment that allows you to produce at higher volumes more efficiently in order to be in the price game. Personally we scaled to do larger work and do alot of corporate work (were a painting company) we do decals in house because we felt it important to be a one stop deal and control workflow and quality. The corporations are great, they want decent work, are generally intelligent enough to be "sold" a proper product at a proper price and once you get setup they dont jump around as much. We get beat up by smaller guys to the point I dont even want to call them back, how much if i bring my own paint, how much if i sand it myself, i just want to throw some paint on it etc. im sorry we dont do that but theres a guy right next to me that does. Dont get me wrong i get annoyed with him and his half price work but we end up with alot of his good clients becuase he cant do the work fast enough usually or for some other quality issue. The key is to get to a point where the guys in their garages cant compete with you and not the other way around.
     
  8. reQ

    reQ Very Active Member

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    Apr 28, 2013
    Canada
    Voted for a sign maker.
     
  9. ThatGuy

    ThatGuy Member

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    Dec 6, 2016
    Hear nor There
    +1 for Jeff

    My prices are what they have to be for me to make money. If a customer does not care if I make money to be in business tomorrow, I do not care if they are in business today.
     
  10. Oroscoe

    Oroscoe Member

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    Jan 30, 2012
    Alabama
    Sign Maker
     
  11. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    buffalo ny
    I put sign maker but also feel that that The Dollar Store concept has given the cheap customer a place to shop by a company that fills that need and has grown into a very large and profitable business.
     
  12. dale911

    dale911 President

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    Jan 31, 2012
    Indianapolis, IN
    Agreed. I do almost exclusively wholesale to the trade but they keep getting cheaper and cheaper also. I see a banner ad at the top of this page as I wrote this offering prints at $0.75 per sq ft on a grand format printer. That leaves super slim margins. Retail in this area is about $8 a sq so I am charging $2 a sq. I have much less overhead than my customers because I own the building my business in and it's built 100' from my house. Even with my minimal overhead, $0.75 a sq doesn't leave much when the printer costs $0.20 a sq and materials is $0.15 a sq plus welding edges and installing grommets. I now have the option to
    A: meet the competitor price
    B: stick to my price and work with locals only who get same day service with no shipping
    C: move into an already competitive business selling to retail customers since I already have all the equipment compete, just not a "retail" location.

    Technology will do nothing but drove prices for the consumer down in this industry while forcing us to buy newer, faster equipment. This is certainly frustrating.
     
  13. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    DFW
    I am a home-based business (12-years) and I used to have cheap prices until I captured enough customers to support myself. I still have banners artificially much lower then our market because that's an easy price comparison segment that I just sub out anyway. But I have harder to compare products at or above market price because on the personal level of service a 1-man shop can provide. I have caught some big fish from some of those cheap banner jobs. So based on my case I vote for Sign Shop..since I'm deciding on the pricing!

    I know some wholesale printers that seem to do the same thing with banners.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. signage

    signage Major Contributor

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    Oct 5, 2005
    Penn
    I think we are all to blame, In see a lot of posts on here for where to get xxx at the best (lowest) price. What makes us any different from every othe business looking for best price? Look into a mirror.
     
  15. Kottwitz-Graphics

    Kottwitz-Graphics Very Active Member

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    Sep 25, 2006
    Ridgely, MD
    Sign maker.

    A cheap customer can be sent down the road. Just remember, you can want in one hand, **** in the other, and which will fill up faster? Just because they want it doesn't mean they should get it.
     
  16. bob

    bob Major Contributor

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    Nonsense. If anyone needs a bit of education it would be yourself and others of the same bent.

    The original question is bogus. It assumes that either or both of the propositions pose a problem. Therefore, if not equal, then one must be larger than the other. The premise of the question is fallacious, assuming things not in evidence.

    To a client a sign that says 'XYZ' is a sign that says 'XYZ' It makes no difference to them whether it's knocked out on something flat and white with adhesive letters from Home Depot or a major work of art using the most exquisite materials. It's still a sign that says 'XYZ' and that's all that it is.

    It's the height of folly to blame a client for seeking the best possible deal on a sign. Lots, if not most sign makers, view themselves and their product as something special and unique. While it might be unique in the Aristotelian sense that everything is unique it's not special.

    Signs are a commodity. A fact known to everyone except sign makers. That they are not a commodity is an delusion from which the most remarkable and entertaining rationalizations spew forth.

    Signs are fungible. A sign of a certain size and material that says 'XYZ' is seamlessly interchangeable with any other sign of the same size and like material. A sign maker might notice the difference but it's an odds on bet that no one else would.

    Unless you can offer something tangible and of value to your client, be it price or turnaround time or something, you might be in the wrong business.
    As in many professions there are lots of sign makers that are dilettante twits who, once they fail at this, will be off to something else.

    I await now the always amusing tsunami of tortured reasoning from irate sign beings trying to explain just how it is that what they do is special and, being special, somehow must command a higher price than some other like product. It's what I live for.
     
  17. SqueeGee

    SqueeGee Active Member

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    When I shop for "commodities", price usually rules. For me, a commodity is something that is the same, no matter where I buy it from.


    I like a certain type of toilet paper. We have a subscription for it on Amazon. It's precisely the same toilet paper as what I can get at Walmart but it's cheaper and I don't have to go to Walmart to get it.


    I have used other toilet paper. It looks the same but it's not.


    If you can find two companies to build the exact same sign, with the exact same materials and install it the exact same way, you could consider it a commodity in the sense that I have outlined above. Otherwise, it's not.


    Gold calendared vinyl produces a different outcome than gold leaf, the same way single ply TP produces a different result on my @ss.


    It's the signmaker's fault. With the low barrier to enter the sign business, there is a revolving door of new upstarts that are willing to do whatever it takes to get orders. Not judging - I've done it also.
     
  18. Some shop at Walmart, some shop at Gucci. If you have a Gucci price, you better have a Gucci product.
     
  19. WrapGuy10

    WrapGuy10 Member

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    Oct 30, 2016
    Las Vegas
    The freelancing lowballer is the real problem IMO. The ones who know the industry but don't have a shop, over head or business license for that matter. They have a wholesale shop print for them and install for dirt cheap. They're a major nuisance for me lately.
     
  20. OldPaint

    OldPaint Major Contributor

    ITS THE SIGN MAKERS..............caving to the customers request!!!!!! you call a plumber, electrician, HVAC guy.....and ALL OF THEM will charge you between $60-100 JUST TO SHOW UP. THEN THEY TACK ON to that parts and added labor. THEY ARE A BUSINESS...... and in it to make a living.
    NOW THE SIGN GUY TODAY......are not the SIGN PEOPLE of years ago....WHEN..... we who had talent to draw, and make signs on the spot with brush and paint.......AND GOT PAID VERY WELL....... cause not just anyone could do this. POINT IS there were not as many in the business trying to get the MONEY that the business could generate.
    saw it coming when the vinyl machine came into play. we sign painters........we now becoming LESS NEEDED cause any dodo could buy one of them and now he is a sign maker)))) this is were QUALITY OF WORK, vs CHEAP PRICES started to take the sign market. old sign guy, charged $150.00 to do 2 truck doors............well the guy with the plotter, to get the job..........DOES SAME JOB FOR $75.00 with vinyl. YES HE is still making money.....but not getting all he can.......CAUSE HE HAS NO REAL SIGN EXPERIENCE......no knowledge of what it takes to design a sign.
    NOW WE( the sign professional)have to lower our prices to keep from losing the jobs. THEN WE(all sign people)EDUCATED THE CUSTOMER..... that he could DICKER PRICES...... and get the price lowered if they said joe shmos signs could do it for $40 dollars less)))) NOW people think nothing of saying they want lower price........BUT DONT DO THIS WITH PLUMBER, HVAC, ELECTRICAN))))
    the business is NOW STRICLY PRICE BASED....... he who can sell the lowest.....get the job.....QUALITY.....DESIGN, TALENT are all gone for the consumer........ALL THEY CARE IS HOW CHEAP CAN I GET IT FOR)))))))))))))))))))
     
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