Why aren't there sign design contests for normal signs?

[Pat Whatley]

You see wraps, you see dimensional store front signs, you see big led lit monuments.....how come nobody has a contest for the kind of signs most of us make everyday?

Where is the "golf tournament hole sponsor" contest?
The "4x8 real estate sign" contest?
The "2' x 6' birthday banner" contest?

I love seeing the high end stuff and I know its the stuff we should all aspire to but shouldn't we celebrate going above and beyond on the routine stuff as well?

 

[visual800]

i agree! and all entries should be a sold or installed sign. none of this 2 hour banner design crap, keep it real

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Plain and simple...It's an indication of the current "state" of the industry. One in 10,000 submittals would make the final 1000 in each category.

Hmmmm...on the other hand, not a bad idea! That's one hell of a lot of failed submissions that will result in "Butt-hurt", causing the submittee to drop out of the biz!

 

[Gino]

Yeah, great idea. A simple sign anyone could make. When the results were in, you'd have 99.9% of the people p!ssed, cause they can't even make a simple sign properly. Then, you'd hafta give everyone a trophy for at least entering and participating ))))) )))

 

[Billct2]

SignCraft does something like this, a sign spec sent to a few selected shops and they submit a design and cost. And hasn't that also been tried here?

 

[player]

Best black helvetica on a square board goes to......








Gino!

Congratulations!

 

[Marlene]

I think there is in Signs of the Times contests categories for banners and plain old signs.

 

[Billct2]

How about a show for "Top Sign", like Top Chef or Project Runway? They did for interior designers and now they have one for Steam Punk. For the inaugural competition I would nominate Gino, Old Paint, Bob......

 

[J Hill Designs]

For the inaugural competition I would nominate Gino, Old Paint, Bob......

Boy, now there's a trainwreck waiting to happen...

 

[Marlene]

How about a show for "Top Sign", like Top Chef or Project Runway? They did for interior designers and now they have one for Steam Punk. For the inaugural competition I would nominate Gino, Old Paint, Bob......

that isn't a half bad idea. love steampunk'd. could see bob as JW, Gino as Steampunk Larry and Old Paint as Miss Morgan

 

[TimToad]

SignCraft does something like this, a sign spec sent to a few selected shops and they submit a design and cost. And hasn't that also been tried here?

While I enjoy that feature every month and have for over 30 years, the average pricing on most of the submittals makes me wonder if it isn't just a lot of very wishful thinking to try and command the dollars I see published. If folks are consistently getting it, more power to them, but after working in four different markets over a span of 35 years, myself and those I've worked with have consistently shaken our heads over the "hit the lottery" pricing we see every month.

Again, for the folks that will argue the point, if folks are getting it, more power to them.

I can see people being motivated to try and push the industry itself forward on pricing and I'm very supportive of that, but like the example in the latest issue, is a double sided 4'x8' ACM sign on posts with a basic set of 14' posts and two holes dug really worth $1,500+ all over the country including in the little hamlets or towns where it seems many of the respondents usually hail from?

We typically can only get around $10.00 per square foot for a 4'x8' on ACM or DiBond and we're in expensive California with only a little peer to peer competition. That being said, the minute we try to inch the prices up closer to what the work is probably is really worth like $12.50 per square foot, we consistently lose the jobs to others.

So for two of those we're talking $650-700 plus the posts, travel time and install labor. Even with an hour's to an from drive time and a generous two hours to install at $100 per hour, there's $300 =/-

Now we're up to $1,000 give or take. A couple of 14' posts and some stingers to make a frame from don't cost $500 or more to procure and assemble unless you are adding some real character to them or advanced woodworking treatment.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

I just want a sign contest where you have to make a no parking fire lane with a .25" border all the way around. And see if anyone can actually match a radius so it looks clean. Every sign around here has a huge gap where the radius comes. If the radius of the aluminum is 1.5" then the border radius is not 1.5" it looks like crap. Maybe we could make voting forum where every week there is a couple catagories of signs. You have till teusday at midnight to submit yours to the matching catagory. Then everyone on Signs101 gets to vote for wed and thurs and on friday the results are released. The winner gets a free date with Gino.

 

[Gino]

I might be easy, but I'm not that easy...................





And Tim..... why are you using two panels for a double sided sign ?? In most cases you can use the other side to make it truly double sided.

So, if you don't ask for more, you'll always be in that area where you're saying, wish I could get that..............

Not a category for discussing pricing, but your numbers sound outta whack to me. Glad I don't live in California for still more reasons, now.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

While I enjoy that feature every month and have for over 30 years, the average pricing on most of the submittals makes me wonder if it isn't just a lot of very wishful thinking to try and command the dollars I see published. If folks are consistently getting it, more power to them, but after working in four different markets over a span of 35 years, myself and those I've worked with have consistently shaken our heads over the "hit the lottery" pricing we see every month.

Again, for the folks that will argue the point, if folks are getting it, more power to them.

I can see people being motivated to try and push the industry itself forward on pricing and I'm very supportive of that, but like the example in the latest issue, is a double sided 4'x8' ACM sign on posts with a basic set of 14' posts and two holes dug really worth $1,500+ all over the country including in the little hamlets or towns where it seems many of the respondents usually hail from?

We typically can only get around $10.00 per square foot for a 4'x8' on ACM or DiBond and we're in expensive California with only a little peer to peer competition. That being said, the minute we try to inch the prices up closer to what the work is probably is really worth like $12.50 per square foot, we consistently lose the jobs to others.

So for two of those we're talking $650-700 plus the posts, travel time and install labor. Even with an hour's to an from drive time and a generous two hours to install at $100 per hour, there's $300 =/-

Now we're up to $1,000 give or take. A couple of 14' posts and some stingers to make a frame from don't cost $500 or more to procure and assemble unless you are adding some real character to them or advanced woodworking treatment.

No you can't say this is the price here and this is what I should get everywhere. California is expensive to live in but what we produce doesn't sell for top dollar here because there is too much competition. Which is good for the buyer but not the seller.

It would make sense if they are in little towns and "hamlets" that they would be able to charge more then you can in California. The competition is a lot less in smaller areas then in a largely populated area. There is more competition in California, which you have found out. If i give you a price and you have no one else to get your sign made by then I can basically charge whatever I want.

 

[TimToad]

No you can't say this is the price here and this is what I should get everywhere. California is expensive to live in but what we produce doesn't sell for top dollar here because there is too much competition. Which is good for the buyer but not the seller.

It would make sense if they are in little towns and "hamlets" that they would be able to charge more then you can in California. The competition is a lot less in smaller areas then in a largely populated area. There is more competition in California, which you have found out. If i give you a price and you have no one else to get your sign made by then I can basically charge whatever I want.

I wasn't advocating standardized pricing regardless of geographical location, but if you follow those pricing surveys and see folks all over routinely getting a certain amount for similar types of work, it should have some bearing on what those of us not in the lowballer or commodity crowd try to value our work at.

Your rationale ignores the far higher cost of living and overhead in places like California, NY, Chicago, etc. Labor costs, rent, utilities, etc. are all much higher in urban areas or most of CA compared to the rest of the country. Regardless of the level of competition, the work has a universal, intrinsic value even just for advertising purposes alone. How is that most electricians, plumbers, auto repair shops, HVAC repair, etc.. are all within a certain hourly price range throughout the country with their rates being higher in the larger cities and urban areas.

Are you saying that we signmakers somehow live in a reverse universe that forces us to accept less than our work is worth simply because we won't cooperate with each other on pricing for the good of the industry?

 

[Pat Whatley]

I just want a sign contest where you have to make a no parking fire lane with a .25" border all the way around. And see if anyone can actually match a radius so it looks clean. Every sign around here has a huge gap where the radius comes.

I have never understood why this is such a problem for a majority of the planet. I refuse to accept the authority of signs with poor borders and bad kerning.

 

[Gino]

I wasn't advocating standardized pricing regardless of geographical location, but if you follow those pricing surveys and see folks all over routinely getting a certain amount for similar types of work, it should have some bearing on what those of us not in the lowballer or commodity crowd try to value our work at.

Your rationale ignores the far higher cost of living and overhead in places like California, NY, Chicago, etc. Labor costs, rent, utilities, etc. are all much higher in urban areas or most of CA compared to the rest of the country. Regardless of the level of competition, the work has a universal, intrinsic value even just for advertising purposes alone. How is that most electricians, plumbers, auto repair shops, HVAC repair, etc.. are all within a certain hourly price range throughout the country with their rates being higher in the larger cities and urban areas.

Are you saying that we signmakers somehow live in a reverse universe that forces us to accept less than our work is worth simply because we won't cooperate with each other on pricing for the good of the industry?

Most everyone just goes to their comfort zone and as long as they can exist, they do just that. Sometimes it's fist to mouth and sometimes it's steak and lobster with caviar and champagne chasers.

It's easy to sit back and make observations and put down all these percentages about this, that and the other thing, but if you want the bigger and better jobs and money..... you must go after it. It rarely comes to you. You might get lucky and have a $500 job, turn into $50,000 job or something, but those are rare. I know plumbers getting $25 an hour and they are superb at their work. Just like some cheapie sign shops only charge out at $25 an hour. It's everywhere in all businesses. Competition really doesn't have a lot to do with it. It's confidence in ones self. It's that simple. If you don't think you can get what the other guy gets..... who cares, ya only need what you think you need to keep your doors open. I'm sure the Henry Fords and Colonel Sanders type people figured your way. There was a thread recently where a member said he reached for the moon and in the end... got double what he wanted.

Therefore, when you say you can only get $10 a square, I'm guessing you aren't asking for more than a few bucks more. Try doubling that and seeing how much business you get. If you double your prices, you only hafta do 1/2 the work you're doing now..... or charge it across the board and what falls off.... does just that.

What do you want to do ?? 2 trucks a week at $3,500 or 10 trucks at $350 ??

 

[TimToad]

I have never understood why this is such a problem for a majority of the planet. I refuse to accept the authority of signs with poor borders and bad kerning.

Or why the worst offenders do it throughout their careers. This is a vocation that one can easily and progressively improve in. How someone could stand over the same type of signs day after day and see that the inside and outside radius don't match the radius of the panel and just keep plopping them on there is beyond me.

 

[Rick]

It's very rare I do mom and pop sign design but yeah, I'd like to see a contest for basic signs, especially if it had real world info. on how long it took to design and the cost.

 

[visual800]

SignCraft does something like this, a sign spec sent to a few selected shops and they submit a design and cost. And hasn't that also been tried here?

and its BS. NOTHING BUT LIES. when it comes tontelling others what you charge theres nontruth