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Discussion Why is this so common in most threads concerning costs........................??

WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
AKwrapguy said:
Graphic software became more stable, less expensive, faster, more capable and easier to use.
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And they sometimes hock the lack of a need to actually know what it takes to create good files, especially if they are going to be used for production.

There is an ad that I get quite frequently from a company that hocks embroidery software without the need to know how to digitize. The software is decent (I had a much older version about 10 yrs ago, before they started hocking it as such), especially for the price point 1k-1200 (which is high end consumer, entry commercial in my world). So a lot of things are coming into this. I cringe every time I see the ad, but there are people that really think that.
 
Kottwitz-Graphics

Kottwitz-Graphics

New Member
I think the issue comes from new people in the industry that don't know "their worth", or know the best material that they need to use to make a good sign... and in my area, I can't throw a rock without hitting someone that has a plotter, "and can cut them stickers"... and its usually someone that has a cheap Ebay plotter, and thinks they can come in cheaper and make a killing.

I actually had a guy that runs a landscaping business that has family money decide to "start a sign company" he runs in, buys the old bank building in town (at the tune of $275k) and proceeds to start putting out just crap work (first thing that comes to mind was a vehicle lettering that was blue lettering, yellow outline on a white van,,,). I had a friend ask me one day what was I going to do, considering the guy said he was going to put all the other sign shops out of business.... I just said I was going to keep on doing my best work, and let the customers decide. He was cutting prices lower than everybody else. He lasted 6 or 7 months, and then was trying to unload the building, asking $300k for it...

Meanwhile, all the customers started asking why I couldn't meet his old prices.... Uuuuuhhhhh, hello, he went out of business at those prices....
 
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player

New Member
Low barrier to entry. No idea of costs. No skills in the trade. The whole sign business is like a turd going down the toilet. (This post will be censored most likely. Wait for it.)
 
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equippaint

Active Member
player said:
Low barrier to entry. No idea of costs. No skills in the trade. The whole sign business is like a turd going down the toilet. (This post will be censored most likely. Wait for it.)
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Were you around this 30 years ago? Its the same old story but the industry is still here.
 
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equippaint

Active Member
player said:
No shop, no equipment. No skills. You are doing great.
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That's pretty rude honestly. Possessions are not a sign of success first off, secondly this dude seems to get a fair amount of good work for being some loser you all make him out to be.
 
Johnny Best

Johnny Best

Active Member
I think the one thing that we all wish for in business is how to turn a buck. Tex has that trait. Don’t know if he inherited the gift or just picked it up though observation or necessity.
And 30 years ago when signpainters were faced by the vinyl machine they had to adapt. But they had the trait already because it was needed to sell hand painted signs.
Years ago when some company in New Jersey who makes felt rounds to go on chair bottoms so not to scratch the floor. Unions, health insurance, EPA, OSHA and changing times no shows he is going to be out of business soon. He makes a decision to have everything made in China, outsourcing.
He saves his company because the guy knows how to turn a buck.
As long as people need felt numbers for chairs or people need signs they will keep the business of signs alive. Constipation by some on here won’t see the turd unless it is someone else.
 
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player

New Member
Texas_Signmaker said:
Better then you... you see your industry going down "like a turd"... I'd hate to be in your shoes.
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I am a little jaded, having been in the business for long time and watching the race to the bottom. The industry has gone from a specialty industry to a commodity. More and more products that used to pay well are being produced by big direct buy companies for one tenth they went for a few years ago. Sure there's still money there, but as more and more "sign shops" open the price gets driven lower and lower the business becomes less attractive, to me anyway. A computer repair guy has a small car and a briefcase with a few screwdrivers charges $100-$250 per hour. A sign guy may have a $100,000- $500,000 in equipment and works to bill half that.
 
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ikarasu

Active Member
player said:
I am a little jaded, having been in the business for long time and watching the race to the bottom. The industry has gone from a specialty industry to a commodity. More and more products that used to pay well are being produced by big direct buy companies for one tenth they went for a few years ago. Sure there's still money there, but as more and more "sign shops" open the price gets driven lower and lower the business becomes less attractive, to me anyway. A computer repair guy has a small car and a briefcase with a few screwdrivers charges $100-$250 per hour. A sign guy may have a $100,000- $500,000 in equipment and works to bill half that.
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Let them. These are the same.companies that won't survive. Yes, when one dies 2 more pop up. But if you do good works you get good clients.

I just had someone contact me about some signs. I don't advertise I own my own printer, or try to even sell anything myself. I've had 3 different people spend thousands on me doing work via word of mouth. One just sent me pictures of a 2'x3' dry erase sign. They bought it a week ago and it's peeling, bubbling and now has wrinkles all over. Paid $300 for it, on alupanel. I told her under a week it'll be under warranty, and to bring it back... Didn't mention how $300 for one small sign is a rip-off, I wish I could get $50 a sqft on a vinyl sign... She asked me to just quote her a new sign, she didn't want to deal with them anymore.

So yes, any idiot can buy a 10k printer and start selling signs. But the quality of work they put out is below sub par. I don't worry about the cheap hacks, and don't think anyone else should either .
 
Texas_Signmaker

Texas_Signmaker

Very Active Signmaker
player said:
I am a little jaded, having been in the business for long time and watching the race to the bottom. The industry has gone from a specialty industry to a commodity. More and more products that used to pay well are being produced by big direct buy companies for one tenth they went for a few years ago. Sure there's still money there, but as more and more "sign shops" open the price gets driven lower and lower the business becomes less attractive, to me anyway. A computer repair guy has a small car and a briefcase with a few screwdrivers charges $100-$250 per hour. A sign guy may have a $100,000- $500,000 in equipment and works to bill half that.
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If your a quality sign shop, that your customers enjoy and respect and you have a good product, than you shouldn't need to "race to the bottom" unless you do the same kind of work as those guys.

I don't care if I loose a bid to someone lower, I NEED TO BE be loosing bids at this point in my career. Thankfully, my clients are not the price shoppers looking to save a penny. Unless I give them a reason to jump ship, they'll keep coming back. A healthy shop is based on repeat and referral.

Maybe you need to look at upping the quality of the product you put out, or how your customer satisfaction ranks. If you needing to take all the jobs, including the "bottom feeder" ones, maybe you should look at your expenses and see where you can trim or improve your financial situation so you don't have to go after those types of job. (Assuming you owner)
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
It's not a question how any of you run your business or what level of clients you have, but why are all the money questions/threads on this forum about skirting around paying for things and saying the customer simply won't pay those costs ?? You can't opt out in most other things in life, unless you cut a corner. Why are so many willing to do this with signs ?? I mean, do you not wanna make a decent living ?? I'll admit, we've had up and down times, but still the level of output is never a question. They either take it or go to some other shop, who is willing to cut those corners.

We basically have a three tier pricing system, which works quite well, but each and every step is explained.

If you're a third party installer or a shop who does not depend on any walk-ins like an Internet company, sure things could be different, but an average sign shop......... I don't get why y'all wanna rip yourselves off..... and then wanna know how to get even lower with the questions being asked all the time.
 
WildWestDesigns

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Gino said:
but why are all the money questions/threads on this forum about skirting around paying for things and saying the customer simply won't pay those costs ?? You can't opt out in most other things in life, unless you cut a corner. Why are so many willing to do this with signs ??
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Some of it, I have to wonder is just not knowing period. Quite a few people get in the sign trade, embroidery trade or even a sign shop (that may know what they are doing there) expand their offerings to something else in order to "cut a corner". In this case, to avoid outsourcing to someone that is in a better position to deliver quality (at least one would hope, but again, they could also be one that got into the game to cut corners).

So they already have one foot in the "cutting corners" door.
 
Stacey K

Stacey K

I like making signs
One reason there are so many pricing questions could be that there's so many different kinds of products we can offer. Before I opened my storefront, I did small signs and vehicles. I had gotten pretty good at pricing most of this. My "off the top of my head" numbers and actual calculations were pretty similar. Now that I'm in a storefront, I'm getting into a lot of different types of signs and have a lot of different requests. I grew up with a family in the appliance business. You sell model A for $300 because you can easily walk into your competitions store and look at the tag, both products are exactly the same, there's no comparison...except customer service. My sister runs a daycare. She calculates a handful of rates every 1-2 years. DONE. My family often wonders why "estimating" takes me so long. Well, I can't walk into Walmart and check a tag, I can't call ABC Daycare for a quick rate. Some sign jobs are cut and dry, but much of what we do is not. It's turned out to be harder than I expected and it's taken some good burns to learn I need to charge more. I'm learning with every job - and trying to take good notes on certain jobs so I can refer back to them for the next weird job. It's so great to have this site to ask for help from you more experienced people, some days, my head is spinning like the girl from The Exorcist...
 
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Superior_Adam

New Member
We turn down jobs left and right because people try to haggle our price down. When a customer comes in for a quote but then say swell billy down the street was X amount cheaper than you can you match his price we say no way. We have our materials and substrates that we know will produce a great product. We let them know that the other place probably was not quoting the same quality material and would be cheaper. We have been in business for 27 years for a reason. There are so many shops that open up and close down before their 5 year anniversary. We will not get into a bidding war with other shops in town. Stay with what you know will be a quality product and last. You may not get the customers business initially but just give it time and they will realize what kind of crap they are getting and eventually come to you.
 
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