Why no love for 3M vinyl?

[Chris...]

Is it the price? My biggest customer insists on 3M 7125.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Probably price. It has been the most reliable film we've worked with over the last 33 years and remains the most used on our vinyl racks.

 

[jfiscus]

I think I've tried most brands, and I almost exclusively use 3M products whenever possible.

 

[Chris...]

It's all I've ever used. Just wondering why I see most people here using other products.

 

[FatCat]

In regards to their cut vinyl, 3M has a much more limited color palette than Oracal or Avery. That said, certain customers require 3M or have colors that only 3M has (Have one that has to have that "bottle green" and nobody else makes anything exactly that shade) and thus, we do use it from time to time. However, for regular white/black/red/blue and other standard colors Oracal has been our main staple as we use both 651 and 751 series.

In regards to wrap vinyl, really like how 3M prints, my installers don't like how it installs and prefer Avery. And yes, price here is nearly 20% higher for the 3M, so its a no-brainer.

 

[Billct2]

I've use either 3M(Gerber) or Arlon. For most jobs the cost difference isn't significant.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

We're a predominantly Orafol shop here and with good reason, at least in my opinion.

Orafol has more colors of cut vinyl to choose from.
Orafol products are much more affordable.
Orafol is a German company and I like quality German products and engineering. They are also bringing jobs to the US, so I can't complain there.
Orafol has been in business for 208 years. 3M has been in business for barely half that.
Orafol's focus is primarily adhesive products. 3M is widely diversified, so adhesive products is only a part of their focus. This focus is also more widespread since they offer both consumer and commercial adhesive products. The same can also be said for Avery.
3M exercises shady business tactics. They will probably threaten me with a lawsuit just for posting this because that's how they roll. Okay, I probably went a little extreme on this one, but I'm sure you get my point.
3M cares about themselves more than the people in this industry. This should be evident to many of you by now. The same can also be said for Avery.
Orafol makes an excellent product, so who needs 3M? But seriously, brand recognition is likely responsible for much of 3M's success.

 

[PRS Bryan]

I use 3M IJ-180 all day.

Why? because it has never failed me despite less than ideal conditions.

We send crews to sites up to 10 hours away in trucks that get 7 to 15 miles to the gallon. If it fails then the fuel itself will cost more than a roll of vinyl.

In addition, many the sites are gas stations. The pumps, canopies and our installers are covered in diesel and gasoline. Of course we clean them but alcohol doesn't always work and have to bust out lacquer thinner. Also we work year around and have been known to install vinyl down to 40 degrees.

A failure mass failure of Oracal 210 cost us thousands. I thought I would be OK because this run of Oracal 210 was installed in my relatively clean shop but once out there it shrunk and we had to put many hours driving to out of the way stations to replace graphics.

All the stuff they say about 3M is true regarding their cost and business practices, but you know what they don't say? "3M makes crappy vinyl".

 

[ams]

I won't use 3M unless it's a state job and requires it. Mainly due to the price, it's way higher than Oracal and Oracal has never failed me. You are paying for the name. Most people bash Oracal but have never tried to compare it to 3M. You need to try both in the same grades.

 

[TimToad]

I use 3M IJ-180 all day.

Why? because it has never failed me despite less than ideal conditions.

We send crews to sites up to 10 hours away in trucks that get 7 to 15 miles to the gallon. If it fails then the fuel itself will cost more than a roll of vinyl.

In addition, many the sites are gas stations. The pumps, canopies and our installers are covered in diesel and gasoline. Of course we clean them but alcohol doesn't always work and have to bust out lacquer thinner. Also we work year around and have been known to install vinyl down to 40 degrees.

A failure mass failure of Oracal 210 cost us thousands. I thought I would be OK because this run of Oracal 210 was installed in my relatively clean shop but once out there it shrunk and we had to put many hours driving to out of the way stations to replace graphics.

All the stuff they say about 3M is true regarding their cost and business practices, but you know what they don't say? "3M makes crappy vinyl".

You are comparing cast wrap vinyl to calendared laminate. Was that just a typo on your part?

 

[PRS Bryan]

You are comparing cast wrap vinyl to calendared laminate. Was that just a typo on your part?

I should correct myself. As Tim Toad stated 210 is the laminate I used, the vinyl was 3165RA.

You are correct, I did not mean to compare IJ-180 to Oracal 210 directly. I told the story to show my extreme costs are when graphics fail. Yes, I could use a cast Oracal vinyl and save a small amount but I don't have the same confidence in Oracal as 3M. When the 210 a five-year vinyl began to fail a few weeks after install, I contacted Oracal and received the typical run-around. Despite me installing the vinyl exactly as instructed, they would not stand behind the product. I then switched to IJ-35 for the limited work I do with calendared and have had no failures.

My poorly worded point was that 3M, in my experience, makes a premium product that performs regardless of the less than ideal circumstances I put it through. They may be expensive but it is the bar that other manufactures are trying to reach. I always hear "X-manufacturer vinyl is just as good as 3M". When I have a job that I cant afford to have fail I only use cast 3M.

I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

We're a predominantly Orafol shop here and with good reason, at least in my opinion.

Orafol products are much more affordable. (Many believe you get what you pay for)
Orafol is a German company and I like quality German products and engineering. (3M's engineering and research & development dwarfs that of Orafol)
Orafol has been in business for 208 years. 3M has been in business for barely half that. (LOL oh no...3M only in business for a measly 114 years) (was Orafol doing adhesive vinyls then?)
Orafol's focus is primarily adhesive products. 3M is widely diversified, so adhesive products is only a part of their focus. This focus is also more widespread since they offer both consumer and commercial adhesive products. The same can also be said for Avery. (is this supposed to be an reasonable argument?)
3M exercises shady business tactics. They will probably threaten me with a lawsuit just for posting this because that's how they roll. Okay, I probably went a little extreme on this one, but I'm sure you get my point. (evidence?)
3M cares about themselves more than the people in this industry. This should be evident to many of you by now. The same can also be said for Avery. (evidence? How is Orafol different?)
Orafol makes an excellent product, so who needs 3M? But seriously, brand recognition is likely responsible for much of 3M's success. (apparently a lot of people feel is isn't as "excellent" as 3M or they wouldn't pay more for it.)

I'm not waving anyone's flag here, just holding your arguments to the fire of reason.

LOL like a meme, (to customers) "Can I call you later...somebody on the internet is wrong."
What is my problem!

 

[ams]

You are correct, I did not mean to compare IJ-180 to Oracal 210 directly. I told the story to show my extreme costs are when graphics fail. Yes, I could use a cast Oracal vinyl and save a small amount but I don't have the same confidence in Oracal as 3M. When the 210 a five-year vinyl began to fail a few weeks after install, I contacted Oracal and received the typical run-around. Despite me installing the vinyl exactly as instructed, they would not stand behind the product. I then switched to IJ-35 for the limited work I do with calendared and have had no failures.

My poorly worded point was that 3M, in my experience, makes a premium product that performs regardless of the less than ideal circumstances I put it through. They may be expensive but it is the bar that other manufactures are trying to reach. I always hear "X-manufacturer vinyl is just as good as 3M". When I have a job that I cant afford to have fail I only use cast 3M.

I apologize for the confusion.

I've been using Oraguard 210 for 3 years and haven't had one fail me yet. It's just like the mass Avery screw up with the spliced rolls, it costed sign shops hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was fixed and people started using it again.

 

[decalman]

I use Oracle 651-751 and 951

Most of my customers are penny pinches. I give them the facts, making full disclosure, and 19 times out of 20, they go for the cheap stuff-651, which I believe is the best calandered film. Just keep it off curves.

I wish I could use 3m, but not at those prices. I never bought it in 17 years

 

[PRS Bryan]

I've been using Oraguard 210 for 3 years and haven't had one fail me yet. It's just like the mass Avery screw up with the spliced rolls, it costed sign shops hundreds of thousands of dollars. It was fixed and people started using it again.

I should correct myself. As Tim Toad stated 210 is the laminate I used, the vinyl was 3165RA.

Many people have had success with Oracal 3165/210, I never would have tried it otherwise. I was not as fortunate.

There are many possibilities for the 3465/210 failure on my end and the manufactures. If it is going well for you, terrific, no need to spend the extra money.

My intent was not to bash Oracal but to state why I am willing to spend the money for "the best" which I believe to be 3M.

 

[TimToad]

I should correct myself. As Tim Toad stated 210 is the laminate I used, the vinyl was 3165RA.

You are correct, I did not mean to compare IJ-180 to Oracal 210 directly. I told the story to show my extreme costs are when graphics fail. Yes, I could use a cast Oracal vinyl and save a small amount but I don't have the same confidence in Oracal as 3M. When the 210 a five-year vinyl began to fail a few weeks after install, I contacted Oracal and received the typical run-around. Despite me installing the vinyl exactly as instructed, they would not stand behind the product. I then switched to IJ-35 for the limited work I do with calendared and have had no failures.

My poorly worded point was that 3M, in my experience, makes a premium product that performs regardless of the less than ideal circumstances I put it through. They may be expensive but it is the bar that other manufactures are trying to reach. I always hear "X-manufacturer vinyl is just as good as 3M". When I have a job that I cant afford to have fail I only use cast 3M.

I apologize for the confusion.

Oracal 3165RA is also calendared vinyl. I would never expect it to perform like IJ180.

 

[PRS Bryan]

Oracal 3165RA is also calendared vinyl. I would never expect it to perform like IJ180.

Nor would I. As I stated, it was to show how much money is at stake when anything fails. In addition the reaction from Oracal when their 5-year vinyl failed in three weeks has lead me to be skeptical of Oracal's stated lifespan. I have never had a premature failure of 3M material, cast or calendared, thus causing me to be more comfortable with 3M.

I misspoke and began the confusion. If my mistake has rendered my comments unable to be understood, then discard what I wrote.

The time limit for editing the post had expired by the time, with your assistance, I realized my mistake.

Clearly I am suffering from a case of the Mondays.

 

[heyskull]

I use a lot of Oracal 651 but tend to use 3M for wrapping or complex stuff.
As for 3Ms wrap material it probably saves you 50% on application time as it is very re positionable.

SC

 

[ams]

It's the case of 3M V.S. Oracal, who's better. Just like Roland V.S. HP. :Big Laugh

 

[MikePro]

cast vinyl colors, we only use 3M. 75yrs in business, and we've been on 3M vinyls ever since there were 3M vinyls.
print-ables, however, I am a HUGE fan of Arlon.