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Question Wide Format Printer Recommendation

ikarasu

Active Member
Yeah, I didn't realize the platens put out that much heat to cause lower quality papers to ripple. I thought only toner printers did that. Tells me I definitely need to consider the take up spool since I print on the 20# bond paper enough.

I should definitely ask the rep about the retro reflective printing. He mentioned it, but I think I have to jump up to a Latex 360 to get that capability.

The latex printers all use the same heads and the same ink. The 110 can print on the same materials as the 350/560/etc. 3M just doesn't consider the 110 a traffic shop printers so they didn't do the testing to provide the warranty... However it prints the exact same, so it will work on ego/DG. I've printed a ton of stuff on them and they're all perfect, the only issue is 3M doesn't warranty it. Not a problem for us since we provide our own warranty... But it might be different since your a municipal.

I believe only the 360/370 carry the warranty, unless they updated it. You can find more information here though -

https://hplatexknowledgecenter.com/applications/hp-latex-printing-solution-for-traffic-signage

You can justify the extra money spent by ink savings .the 110/115 uses 400mll carts while the bigger models use 700ml, it's only a tiny bit more per ml, but over the 10+ years you plan on using the printer that's still a bit of savings.

My only regret about the 110 is the ink carts .I can handle the slower speed, still able to print 2-3 rolls per day with it... But knowing I'm paying more per print because of ink bugs me. Makes.me wish I bought the higher end model. I figured it'll be in my house (the 110 is my hobby printer) and I won't use it much so the ink savings isn't worth it. Turns out I'm printing a lot more than I realized I would on it, so I wish I got the bigger carts.
 

axelmk

New Member
Radji, if you need to produce Coroplast signs, you will need either a Latex or Eco-solvent printer and a laminator to mount these with. Latex has been a good addition to our production area.
Having said that, the space you will need to fit these two machines will probably will take up as much space as a Flatbed like the HP550 and I can’t emphasize enough how efficient that machine has made us since we installed it two years ago, It can print directly to aluminum, coroplast, scrim banner, di-bond, paper. Foamboards, etc...
Yes, the pricing is higher (60-70k) but the efficiencies will pay for it in space and time as long as you have some volume coming through.
You Could even consider buying a second hand unit from a reputable dealer like Global Garage

Let me know if you have any other questions.
 

AKwrapguy

New Member
The rep was steering me towards the 315, saying the same thing you said, that the 115 is for one-offs in a home office environment. Very cool to know the 315 is meant to print on the 3M reflective media. That was on someone's wish list that we get a printer that can print those. If speed and volume (and the RIP software) are the only difference, I just have to find a way to justify spending the extra $2700 for the 315. Might not be difficult now.

Since I know that space is an issue for you don't forget that most digitally printed things should be laminated as well. There are many different types of laminators out there with all kinds of bells and whistles and set up configurations.
 

equippaint

Active Member
Id encourage you to not narrow your choices this early and not to throw eco-solvent to the side until you demo. You should really look at all of the options in your price range. I personally dont like the way the hp loads and it seems like itd be a real pita if you switched to different medias during the day. Another option could be the mimaki ucjv.
If youre set on latex after this, hp is the only way to go.
 

particleman

New Member
Agreed. An entry level HP Latex is $8k. With a cold laminator, that brings up to $9.5k. We spend almost $2k last fiscal year outsourcing signs and banners. If I can bring the print costs down to 1/3rd of that, a $9.5k machine setup would be recovered in less than 10 years.

I don't see how you could justify any purchase based on what you are doing now. You aren't even considering service contracts over 10 years which will add up to probably as much as you paid originally. 10 years is well beyond the useful life of the machine, I'd count on 5-6 years normally.
 
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radji

New Member
The latex printers all use the same heads and the same ink. The 110 can print on the same materials as the 350/560/etc. 3M just doesn't consider the 110 a traffic shop printers so they didn't do the testing to provide the warranty... However it prints the exact same, so it will work on ego/DG. I've printed a ton of stuff on them and they're all perfect, the only issue is 3M doesn't warranty it. Not a problem for us since we provide our own warranty... But it might be different since your a municipal.

I believe only the 360/370 carry the warranty, unless they updated it. You can find more information here though -

https://hplatexknowledgecenter.com/applications/hp-latex-printing-solution-for-traffic-signage
That's what I thought. I didn't see much difference between the 315 and 365 in terms of spec. The 365 just seems to be the 64 inch printer vs the 54 inch 315 with the faster printing speed and high volume capacity. The 365 comes looks to come with extras like the takeup reel and your choice of RIP.

As you suspected, 3M only warranties their retro reflective materials on the 365. I'm not too concerned about the 3M warranty. A lot of the retro reflective signs I would be printing are non-regulated anyway. I would stick to the non-regulated signage to see how well it lasts before I even attempt any regulated traffic signs.

You can justify the extra money spent by ink savings .the 110/115 uses 400mll carts while the bigger models use 700ml, it's only a tiny bit more per ml, but over the 10+ years you plan on using the printer that's still a bit of savings.

My only regret about the 110 is the ink carts .I can handle the slower speed, still able to print 2-3 rolls per day with it... But knowing I'm paying more per print because of ink bugs me. Makes.me wish I bought the higher end model. I figured it'll be in my house (the 110 is my hobby printer) and I won't use it much so the ink savings isn't worth it. Turns out I'm printing a lot more than I realized I would on it, so I wish I got the bigger carts.
And I am looking at the same problem. Once word gets out I have these added capabilities, the wide format workload will blow up sky high. So having 700mL ink cartridges would be a better option. I just worry about their shelf life/expiraration. If I have a month or two where I only do minimal wide format printing, I don't want those cartridges to suddenly go bad. I've had the same issue with the designjet cartridges, where staff ordered a bunch of them and they sat for over a year and are now expired. I can still used them, but I want to avoid such a situation with a new wide format printer.

Since I know that space is an issue for you don't forget that most digitally printed things should be laminated as well. There are many different types of laminators out there with all kinds of bells and whistles and set up configurations.
I know. I will almost guaranteedly get a cold press laminator with this new wide format printer. But the whole point of the latex/eco-solvent is to NOT have to laminate everything. All the reps and print shops I've talked to said to not even try to laminate scrim vinyl. Allegedly, the results with be disastrous.

Id encourage you to not narrow your choices this early and not to throw eco-solvent to the side until you demo. You should really look at all of the options in your price range. I personally dont like the way the hp loads and it seems like itd be a real pita if you switched to different medias during the day. Another option could be the mimaki ucjv.
If youre set on latex after this, hp is the only way to go.
I'm not. I will be demoing a Mutoh ValueJET ecosolvent as well. Problem is if there's even a hint of fumes, its no go. I've already been told there's no way I will get a vent hood into my print room for this purpose. I also wonder what the maintenance load is like for the ecosolvent machines. I can't be spending hours everyday doing PM on it just to keep it running.

I don't see how you could justify any purchase based on what your are doing now. You aren't even considering service contracts over 10 years which will add up to probably as much as you paid originally. 10 years is well beyond the useful life of the machine, I'd count on 5-6 years normally.
Knock on wood, we had a Xerox laser wide format that lasted 22 years with maintenance and service thru the same vendor. Generally though, the vendors & manufacturers who provide the service contracts to these machines will not exceed 10 years on the original agreement. After 10 years, they have to look at availability of parts before they sign us up for another service contract. Ricoh has guaranteed their lasers for 10 years, versus the manufacturer of my folder/inserter will only provide a service contract for 7 years. With regular maintenance and availability of parts thoough, a latex or eco-solvent can last over ten years easy.
 

equippaint

Active Member
I dont think that latex are odor-less either? The latex guys can confirm or deny this though.
Theres a lot more printers than mutoh too, many have been talking up the epsons.
With all due respect, it doesnt make a bit of sense to buy a machine thats break even point exceeds its useful life. With the cheaper roll printers id bet most cover themselves in the first few months to a year tops.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Latex is pretty odorless... I smell the vinyl heating up, but I dont smell the ink. It does smell a little bit, but on a scale of 1-10 I'd rate it a 2, with UV/latex being in the 8/9 range...


As for the ink, I'm pretty sure the shelf life is 1-2 years. I doubt the ink will expire before you can use it. and the ink isnt that expensive, I pay $105 Canadian for a 400 ML cart. 1-2 of my carts are about a year + old and prints just fine.
 

radji

New Member
I don't think that latex are odor-less either? The latex guys can confirm or deny this though.
There's a lot more printers than Mutoh too, many have been talking up the Epson.
I misstated a bit. Not necessarily odor free but VOC odor free, as in I don't need a vent hood. One would think since latex inks are aqueous based, the odor given off is mostly water vapor, not VOC. That's what I am trying to avoid.

With all due respect, it doesnt make a bit of sense to buy a machine thats break even point exceeds its useful life. With the cheaper roll printers id bet most cover themselves in the first few months to a year tops.
To be honest, useful life is based upon the usage. If I'm using my machine at 50% of its duty cycle, versus a print shop using it at 90% of its duty cycle, with regular maintenance my machine will theoretically last longer then the print shops, even if they are the same exact machine.

But what you and ikarasu rings very clear with me. I don't want to go down this path unless there are significant savings (short term and long term) to recover the cost of the expenditure in addition to the added in-house functionality. Don't worry, I'm one of those "responsible" government workers...:D
I won't recommend a new machine unless it meets both of those criteria. As opposed to our IT tech who has his heart set on a PageWide XL 4500 with a starting price of $29k. When he told me we should get one of those, I laughed.

Latex is pretty odorless... I smell the vinyl heating up, but I dont smell the ink. It does smell a little bit, but on a scale of 1-10 I'd rate it a 2, with UV/latex being in the 8/9 range...
Can't be worse than all the paper dust I inhale on a daily basis. Hot vinyl odor isn't that carcinogenic, right? :rolleyes:

As for the ink, I'm pretty sure the shelf life is 1-2 years. I doubt the ink will expire before you can use it. and the ink isnt that expensive, I pay $105 Canadian for a 400 ML cart. 1-2 of my carts are about a year + old and prints just fine.
Outstanding. I freakin' hate the designjet cartridges. They always have an encoded expiration date 6 months after we buy them. I suppose it will also depend on how often I need to change out the cartridges as well.
 

Todd Wigington

Wrap Guy and Sons
I have been reading all of this and hearing all the above. Here is my 20 years experience. I have owned several different machines of the years from the basic little POS to the $200K flatbed printer. Stick with the HP Latex for all around printing. No harmful smells and easy to repair. The heads are only $115 to $130 each where the others will be $1500 to $2500. If you are mainly printing rolled material and not flat then you should just print on the cheap gloss sticker material, lam and mount. A cheap cold laminator will serve for 2 things, laminating to make the install easier and mounter to make that job easier. If you go to a hybrid machine you have to use a UV printer. They are very good but stink!! When I started out I was in your shoes. I wish the latex printers were out then! The ink is cheap and the heads are cheap and if you are half way mechanical it is easy to fix. I had a 26500 in a storage for 2 years. Pulled it out replaced the heads and ink lines and it runs like a champ to this day. You can also find these fairly cheap on the used market. What ever you choose if you laminate it you won't have to worry about fading. I even mount my prints direct for the printer for short term graphics with out lam, works great. Now a days we mostly do car and window wraps so I have gone to a used Mutoh VJ 1624 with a bulk ink system as well. My kids are 3M and Avery certified wrappers and they prefer the eco solvent to the latex for difficult bends and curves because the solvent ink becomes part of the material. But the HP is great for everything else. Good Luck! Negotiate the ink and head costs. Don't pay retail!!
 

radji

New Member
Thank you for the feedback. I am not discounting eco-solvent. I just know I can't get the infrastructure support for it. I am definitely getting a cold press laminator with all this. Looks to be the saving grace so I can utilize a roll wide format printer and still do coroplast (and possibly dibond) signs.
 

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
What about an HP fb550 or an acuity LED 1600 hybrid? If you need to print and laminate sheets, these machines won't take up much more room than a laminator with I feed and outfeed tables.but you can skip a step.

Just throwing it out there.
 

Ra33it

New Member
I've also used HP Scitex FB550 and FireSprint makes a good point, those machines are pretty versatile. Honestly though I think it would still take up more space, because you need input and output tables if you're going to be printing 4x8 sheets. They can also print roll to roll, but you have to waste so much material to set it up.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
You're also going from a 10k printer to a 80k printer though .

The fb500 uses a lot of ink during cleaning also...so unless your using it a lot to make it worthwhile, it's going to be a money pit.

Its great for printing on substrates, we use ours everyday. But if you're not printing dozens of signs a day, it's not worth the extra $65,000 over a printer laminator Combo. You do save a few bucks per sign... But the colors are more vibrant / glossy on our solvent/Latex, so we only use the flatbed for real estate and temp Coro signs .

Theyre great machines for a mid-hig production shop but the estimated break even point for OP was 10 years on a 10-15k printer. By the time he breaks even on the fb500 he'll be retired :D
 
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radji

New Member
Yeah, ikarasu is right. No way I could justify a full flatbed printer. And as much as I like the versatility of a hybrid, I looked at one this week at one of our in town print shops (an EFI brand), it was a little too big for the space I have. That and the price might be a bit to high.
 
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