Will an HP Latex printer actually print yellow?

[CES020]

Sightline, when I said it doesn't do LAB, what I was referring to was a comment by the X-Rite people about it, and I think, and I'm only guessing, is his reference was that it's not exporting LAB colors, it's either RGB or CMYK. That's all way over my head, that's why I asked the questions I did about it.

 

[dypinc]

Sightline, when I said it doesn't do LAB, what I was referring to was a comment by the X-Rite people about it, and I think, and I'm only guessing, is his reference was that it's not exporting LAB colors, it's either RGB or CMYK. That's all way over my head, that's why I asked the questions I did about it.

In clarifying my discussion of LAB I was only referring to the assigned values is a RIP when it is given a named spot color in the file to act upon as to what color to output based on the calibration/profile combination to maximize the gamut of the printer and media combination. Don't confuse that with LAB as in converting to RGB or CMYK in say an Adobe application.

And I might add that is why a proper calibration/profile needs to be done for the printer and media in use, as anything else will be like chasing your tail, whether it is process or spot. And remember many people are still afflicted with the notion of assigning ancient CMYK profiles meant for way back in the nineteen hundreds offset press inks, which greatly limit the large gamut possibilities of modern inkjet printers and digital presses for that matter.

 

[CES020]

dypinc, one of the most interesting seminars I have taken was the one from X-Rite. I could have listened to that guy talk for a week. After attending that one, and the others I have attended, I'm convinced very few people in this business understand color. He was explaining how to get rich colors, how the black works, how to get blacks to be black (and why pure black doesn't look like black). It was really interesting. In every single class or seminar I have been in about color, they have all shown visual representations of gamuts, and then showed what happens when a color is spec'd out of gamut. It's all pretty clear, and in every single session, after it's over, there will be no less than 3 people ask "How do I hit this color", and it'll be one that's out of gamut. The response is always "You can't with the hardware you have", and the reply will always be "But I have to, it's what my customer asked for and it needs to be right". I'm always amazed at how many people don't understand that principle. I'm not suggesting I'm much better than they are, but I know there are things you can't do.

 

[dypinc]

First, I am not with Onyx, or even a reseller who is attempting to push Onyx onto you. As my previous post clearly indicated, the trim marks functions are in Onyx (see the screen caps), it is the addition of automatic grommet marks that is not present.

Second, it sounds like your mind is made up with regards to Onyx, and that is just fine from my perspective. There are a number of very good RIP products on the market. Onyx is only one of them. Case in point, I believe that Caldera has recently added a grommet marks function in v10 that was just announced at SGIA.

Dypinc - My efforts here are directed to help the user community at large. Please feel free to disregard them going forward.

I have seen enough of Onyx to not bother or waste my time discussing it further, other than to help those try to achieve better color, even though that may mean having to dig up deeply buried dialogs. So, hopefully this discussion will help further the understanding of that process in Onyx or other RIPs.

 

[dypinc]

dypinc, one of the most interesting seminars I have taken was the one from X-Rite. I could have listened to that guy talk for a week. After attending that one, and the others I have attended, I'm convinced very few people in this business understand color. He was explaining how to get rich colors, how the black works, how to get blacks to be black (and why pure black doesn't look like black). It was really interesting. In every single class or seminar I have been in about color, they have all shown visual representations of gamuts, and then showed what happens when a color is spec'd out of gamut. It's all pretty clear, and in every single session, after it's over, there will be no less than 3 people ask "How do I hit this color", and it'll be one that's out of gamut. The response is always "You can't with the hardware you have", and the reply will always be "But I have to, it's what my customer asked for and it needs to be right". I'm always amazed at how many people don't understand that principle. I'm not suggesting I'm much better than they are, but I know there are things you can't do.

That would have been a interesting seminars. I have been involved in design and printing color on offset, Inkjet and digital presses, capturing color on film, scanning and digital cameras over the last 30 years. I have lost track of how many RIPs I have used in that time or how many different printers.

There is no substitute for proper color management. Without it you will never know what the gamut possibilities of you output devices are.

As a example we put in a new Xerox Versant Digital Press at the end of September. The gamut possibilities are beyond anything I have seen before on a digital press. Like all output device I push it to it's limits. The default black generation it does when you do the default profile is so poor and would make you think you couldn't achieve a higher gamut. The funny thing is I threw my knowledge at it and output jobs that had the Xerox people thinking I printed the post card piece in an inkjet printer.

HP did a real disservice to this end with the ink limiting on the L300 series. Hopefully with enough complaining by everyone we will see them allowing higher ink densities in future upgrades. Although with Latex inks it is not just about how much total ink you can throw down. Sometimes and often times less is better in the right combinations.

 

[iSign]

I have seen enough of Onyx to not bother or waste my time discussing it further, other than to help those try to achieve better color...

You seem to know yer s#it... ya just don't seem to know yer's stinks like the rest of us...

Look, I asked for one basic function here that most other RIPs have. Read the LAB values for a spot or any other color (like a customer supplied paint chip) with a spectro. None of you Onyx apologists have point it out.

There is a lot of other basic RIP functions like grommet marks. frame marks etc. that I have yet to find. Maybe you can point that out as well.

you and your "asking basic function" claims, received an excellent & informative answer to part one... then an equally informative answer that you didn't happen to like about something else... so on top of the smarmy "Onyx apologists" comment, you blast the guy taking time out of his day to upload 5 or 6 screenshots, because you have a sour attitude about something.

I for one appreciate members like Castek, and will chime in now, to say so, since you don't seem to have been raised to do so yourself.

(I can't risk letting someone's self absorbed sense of entitlement cost the rest of us the continued benefit from guys like this sharing detailed info like that, if they were to tire of just getting whining in return for it)

 

[AF]

Onyx isn't for everyone (it didn't work me). It can do so much but the workflow is cumbersome and some commonly needed functionality are buried in a series of ambiguous sub menus and windows. Once you know your way around it, it works fine and has the ability to produce swatches for getting good spot colors. But if it is frustrating to use like it is for dypinc, then he should spend some time with some other rip demos. I am not aware of the "perfect" rip product as they all seem to lack something the other ones have. So find the one that gives you good printed results and doesn't cause brain damage while trying to muscle through the UI.

As for the OP, I printed tons of pure process yellow today on our latex and it looks great. No "mud dots" and I had ICC profiles enabled. It worked because I preserved "hues" as Onyx calls it. When printing off-yellows or trying to match a customer sample, I go the route of reading in the lab values from the spectro and printing swatches and the customer selects the one they think is closest. I never use the term "exact match" or "perfect" with customers because such a state is not possible to reach.

 

[SightLine]

I do have to agree with them on color though. Very very few really have a good understanding of all the interactions that are going on. I like to think I have my head wrapped around it pretty well but I have a difficult time articulating much of it to others. I often try to explain that the built in profiles are never going to give truly great results. Each printer is slightly different and the environment the printer is in also has a dramatic affect on a profile. One simple thing that has been mentioned though, design in RGB. The CMYK SWOP profile is terribly limited. In its simplest terms one just has to go at it on faith and give it a try to see the difference. Yes I also recommend using Adobe RGB as a design profile but I generally do not mention that probably 98% of the monitors everyone is using is barely able to even display the full sRGB gamut. I also to an extent disagree with some of the "standards" that are being pushed. Yes you will have consistent color if it a standard is properly implemented across all devices and printers however the premise of it is that for it to be consistent across all devices then the lowest common denominator must become the standard. That intentionally limits every other devices in your operation. My JV33 has a far greater gamut capability than the desktop color laser we use for invoices. So my implementation is to profile each device to use the maximum of its abilities. I'm also one of the less common ones who does use an i1 (quite a bit too) and we also use NEC Multisync professional wide gamut monitors (mine is a PA301W ). Keeping it all straight though is some work.

 

[Pat Whatley]

+1 profile issue.
my quick fix, until I learn more about these onyx features discussed in the thread:
I recently had to match 3M sunflower yellow, and could not do-so with my 26500 even after I thought I had profiled it properly BUT running files with ICC Profiles OFF and setting CMYK values yourself helps to achieve those rich colors that your profiled/printed color charts might end-up lacking.

I stayed tonight after the "Printer Operator" went home to try and teach myself how to fix the profile issues. Printed the color swatches like the video said.....BAM! Yellow. So at least I knew that yellow was possible, the printer wasn't broken and it had to be something in the settings. Using the "jiggle some wires around and see if it will start" method of figuring out the problem I started trying to adjust different things in the profile settings with no clue about what I was actually doing. Got frustrated with that and just set it to "TURN ALL PROFILES OFF".

I'd set up a test print with 4" x 4" blocks of 8 different PMS yellows running from Pantone Yellow to PMS 116. The printed colors with the profiles turned off are dead on. Rich, vibrant yellows that look like cast vinyl. Perfect.

The "Printer Operator" is going to be convinced I'm trying to get her fired.

 

[AF]

Bravo!

 

[Desert_Signs]

First, I am not with Onyx, or even a reseller who is attempting to push Onyx onto you. As my previous post clearly indicated, the trim marks functions are in Onyx (see the screen caps), it is the addition of automatic grommet marks that is not present.

Second, it sounds like your mind is made up with regards to Onyx, and that is just fine from my perspective. There are a number of very good RIP products on the market. Onyx is only one of them. Case in point, I believe that Caldera has recently added a grommet marks function in v10 that was just announced at SGIA.

Dypinc - My efforts here are directed to help the user community at large. Please feel free to disregard them going forward.

Caldera has had a grommet mark function since at least version 7, IIRC. I can't remember the version for sure, but it had it when I first started using it in 2011.

 

[bob]

...Got frustrated with that and just set it to "TURN ALL PROFILES OFF"...

I'd set up a test print with 4" x 4" blocks of 8 different PMS yellows running from Pantone Yellow to PMS 116. The printed colors with the profiles turned off are dead on. Rich, vibrant yellows that look like cast vinyl. Perfect...

"TURN ALL PROFILES OFF" being a functional identity with a rendering intent of "No Color Correction'. A notion previously recommended and subsequently mocked by the button men from the local chapter of the profile nostra.