Working for Someone Else / What Am I Worth?

[Mac34]

I've been in the industry now for a little over 14yrs. now. Like any other small sign shop I've had my fair share of up's and down's. I truly enjoy doing what I've chosen as a career, but unfortunately when I look at the financial-end of things at the end of the year I find in reality I'm hardly staying afloat. Sure, I could try some new marketing tactics and other things to help promote my business (which I have) but the way I look at it is if it hasn't happened in the amount of time I've dedicated so far, I might just be better off looking for another job and do my signwork on the side?

Being out of the real workforce and looking for a job is definitely intimidating. I do have a 4yr. degree in Graphic Design, but being out of college since 1996 I am a little "prehistoric" when it comes to Photoshop and other programs if I were to look for a career directly in my field? There are also the other jobs (grocery clerk, car wash attendant, landscaper) etc. All good hardworking jobs of course, but not quite the avenue I'd like to take I think (even if I can keep my small business on the side).

Last night I saw an ad from a very reputible sign company in my area, preferably looking for an experienced sign maker (which I feel I fit the category). The owner got right back to me within a 1/2 hour, and seemed excited to speak with me. I spoke with him this morning, and he said he had heard of my business before and knew I've been in the industry for quite awhile. We talked a little about the details of the job, and it definitely seemed right up my alley! He also said he's looking for immediate help, and could start me around 45 hrs. per week. So far so good right? Well, I'm not sure if the $15.00 per hour is what he's paid his previous employees (who usually came in without any experience) or if that is what he was hoping to offer me? I just know there is really no way I could afford to work for that amount unfortunately.

Another concern he had was the fact we're in the same field, and our situation could turn into a potential "conflict of interest"? He had also said he'd be interested in talking about a "No Compete" clause in the deal. My take on all of it is there is no way I can cover my own benefits, take care of my daughter's daycare, and make a car and house payment on $15.00... while shutting down my business. I would most definitely have to rely on working at night with my own business just to cover things that my new position might likely not be able to. He had also mentioned something about working together, and bringing my clients over to his business. One problem I have with that is that although I'm not where I want to be right now, I have worked hard to be where I'm at. To just more or less "give" customers to someone, I feel I am not only taking a huge risk if things don't pan out working there (and I have to go back on my own), it would also help HIM out immensely. Let's not forget, when you hire someone your goal should be to profit off of them somewhat. That is just part of taking the risk and being the owner of something... to sometimes be able to enjoy those extra profits I understand.

I'm thinking this, and I'm wondering if I'll appear I'm shooting for the moon? In order to help cover the fact I won't receive benefits, have a 1 hr. total commute now, and what I'll need to cover my monthly responsibilities I would like to ask for $20+ per hour. This would include me NOT taking on any new customers (as I just wouldn't have the time now anyway) and any customers I decide to bring over with me I feel I should receive some sort of commission per job? I mean, the owner didn't have to pay for advertising or spend any additional effort to get these new customers. I brought them with me, and I'm taking a chance that if I decide to leave the business and go back to work for myself. That my customers may decide to stay there instead?

I have about 4 or 5 customers that account for well over 50% of my annual sales. Not 50% the amount of time I spend working... just my revenue. With that, they are my five favorites of course and the one's I would most definitely not want to lose if things went south. Those customers I am going to shoot to keep, but the other's I wouldn't mind sending over to my new work as long as I were to receive some sort of compensation?

Am I way off base here? I know it is a tough economy right now, and you have people doing different jobs far from what they were used to or went to school for (just to have a job). I don't want to come across as cocky or arrogant or anything to him, just want to let him know where I need to stand on this of course. $15.00 might be his best offer, but I KNOW that no matter what I need to get a fair amount more than that or I'd be better off working at my local Home Depot part time for benefits and extra income. I think my offer of $20.00 per hour and a commission on the customers I bring to him is pretty fair. He says he's had plenty of non-experienced workers in the past, and said he'd like to find his "right hand man" so to speak. This tells me he might be prepared to pay a little more to get that right person, but I guess that will be determinded?

Do you think this is a fair offer to him, or am I looking at a $15.00 per hour "take it or leave it" deal? (I'm in the Northeast if that helps with compensation). Thank you!

 

[Rick]

Are you a self taught sign maker or did you work or train for someone else?

Are you any good?

What types of signs can you make or design? Vinyl/wrap/non illuminated dimensional/electrical/architectural signs/pylons ADA?

 

[petesign]

You might be able to negotiate a commission on the clients you bring over with you. If he wants a non-compete he should sweeten the deal. I recently hired a commission based sales person who has a lot of experience in the industry, with the option to do production when it's needed. He can make as much money as he can go out and get... if the other guy needs help - maybe that's an agreement he is willing to make.


Are you not making ends meet because you aren't busy enough, or are you working your butt off all of the time, and still not making it... If it's the latter, it's time for you to sit down and figure out what your expenses are, and adjust your pricing accordingly... if you go up 20% on pricing and lose 20% of your business, you aren't killing yourself anymore, and can spend that time generating new business. I recently had to increase my pricing a little, and haven't noticed a drop off at all.

 

[SignManiac]

I've often wondered the same thing myself, what am I worth. Would a shop even hire someone like me. Old, cranky, mostly set in my ways. My bet is I'm worth more than what most shops want to pay. What hurts me is I'm self taught and don't have a degree. So do companies only look at your education, or do they look at your skills and experience?

 

[SignaramaFL]

I've often wondered the same thing myself, what am I worth. Would a shop even hire someone like me. Old, cranky, mostly set in my ways. My bet is I'm worth more than what most shops want to pay. What hurts me is I'm self taught and don't have a degree. So do companies only look at your education, or do they look at your skills and experience?

Not sure if this is off topic... but from what I noticed it depends on the industry your in, if you need experience or schooling. In a trade, I believe experiance can more times speak louder than schooling. But with something like law, medical, engineering you need the schooling.

 

[HulkSmash]

It really depends on what you're doing. Laying vinyl, and laminating stuff? $15 an hr isnt bad.

Do electrical? Can you structure a $10,000 monument sign? Can you operate any machinery, eg - printer, router....etc.. Can you install? Can you carve or paint?

all depends on what you can do. But a starting pay at $15 bucks at a new company really isn't all that bad. I'd say more around $17

 

[Mac34]

I have focused on being a little more aware of my pricing and overhead, and it has in fact made a difference. The only customers I've really lost are those "kicking tires" more-or-less anyway. When I first started, I did 45 race cars a year. Now... probably around 5. Most had decided to go a cheaper route, and with everyone and their mother going out and buying a cheap sign cutter and basically having at it. I find this is where most of the race car customers have drifted to. I appreciate their help in getting me started in the business of course, but after burning the midnight oil for years and years and not truly being compensated for it I kind of had to back down from the race cars.

I too believe that experience can many times trump extra education when it comes to our field, but on the other hand I gained some pretty valuable knowledge after taking some of my graphic design classes in college... primarily my typography class. I've had many of my customers say they like a nice, clean layout and that is what I feel I've been able to provide them. Sure, over time I think most get the hang of what works and what doesn't, but I do feel that some of my graphics classes helped push me out of the gate a little faster.

As for the whole "conflict of interest"-thing, I definitely see his point. I also understand my take on it as my current customers are not a threat to him. Sure, if I was working for him AND was picking up new customers I could see how he'd be upset (especially where he'd be providing me a full time job) but my current customers (should) be in fact just that... mine. What I do on the side for supplimental income should be my perrogative. On the other hand, if he is truly interested in having me become his right hand man (and wants me not to work on the side) than he should understand that I will need to be compensated for that. Either pay me more per hour than he originally planned, give me a commission on the customers I bring to him, or just go ahead and buy my business? My biggest thing with all of this is what happens if I just plain don't like working for the guy? I shut down my business (or worse) send him my customers? It is a big risk on my part. This is why unless I am decently compensated, I really don't see the point in doing this? I think the potential is great for BOTH of us, but I also feel that if he is that solid in his efforts to make sure I'm not working on the side I will need to see something different.

Is there anyone out there that has hired here in the Northeast (and if so) what have they paid for experienced help?

 

[Rick]

I've often wondered the same thing myself, what am I worth. Would a shop even hire someone like me. Old, cranky, mostly set in my ways. My bet is I'm worth more than what most shops want to pay. What hurts me is I'm self taught and don't have a degree. So do companies only look at your education, or do they look at your skills and experience?

Thats part of the point I was trying to get at. An experienced signmaker really depends on the experience.

It's obvious there are exceptions. You are not a self taught vinyl jockey... you can put your dimensional sign work and design up against anyone in the business and know it's going to be better than 95% of the work out there. That probably makes you overqualified. If someone offered you 25 an hour, it would be an insult.

The sign companies I have worked for have a dim view of self-taught sign shop owners looking for work. Graphic and environmental graphic design firms usually require a degree, or larger, established sign shops. Even if you had a degree, EGD and graphic design firms are looking at schools.... community college degree is probably not gonna cut it, I have seen resumes thrown away because of the wrong school, they usually want people from specific schools.

I ask the question 'what type of sign work' because vinyl jockeys are a dime a dozen.

The more sign types you can design or make, the more potential you have with a company. I have been a vinyl monkey all the way to wayfinding and themed environments but it does not make me more employable to the average sign shop.

I posted this before, getting a job with tons of trained experience is freakin' hard. I have been on my own for 7 years, in that 7 years I have applied at around 30 sign shops. The few that were going to pay me was in the 15 - 20 dollar range... that is extremely low if you want to live in Orange County California. My freelance work may have paid off as I'm negotiating a real job with a growing company... don't know if I'm gonna take it, but it will get me to O.C., take care of the kids, have time for vacations and going out, and make more than I'm making now... and I get to keep my clients.

I think the only way you would get a job that paid what you are worth would be developing a relationship with the company that would appreciate your expertise. Knocking on doors or answering craiglist ads, you are competing with hungry young kids and vinyl monkeys looking for a raise.

 

[Mac34]

It really depends on what you're doing. Laying vinyl, and laminating stuff? $15 an hr isnt bad.

Do electrical? Can you structure a $10,000 monument sign? Can you operate any machinery, eg - printer, router....etc.. Can you install? Can you carve or paint?

all depends on what you can do. But a starting pay at $15 bucks at a new company really isn't all that bad. I'd say more around $17

I have plenty of experience with weeding, laying, etc. Although I don't have alot of experience with installs, paint, and all of that stuff I'd also be offering him more than someone he could train off the street. With a degree in Graphic Design and 14yrs. experience under my belt, there is the fact he could count on me to aid in the design of everything. I've manned the phone, I've dealt with customers, and with running my own shop for over 14yrs. it could easily turn into a deal where he could leave things in my hands eventually and take of early to go fishing if he'd like? (Hahaha!) I would (like) to see something around the $20.00 range (so I could afford my own health insurance that's not provided) but I don't think in this economy I'd cringe at $18.00 either. Be it $18.00 or $20.00, I would still need to be able to do some work on the side to help make ends meet. With a $2,000.00 per month house payment, $375.00 truck payment, a 19 month old daughter who needs daycare, food, and everything else it is easy to see how fast anything under $20.00 could get chewed up in a heartbeat. Sure, it might be enough to just get by... but that's kind of all I'm doing right now isn't it? Having the ability to bring the extra on the side will not only make things easier for me, it would also make things less expensive for him as I wouldn't have to demand $25.00+ per hour, or say I need hime to provide benefits, etc. I DO hope things work out though, as I'm a big fan of his work and thing I would really enjoy a little change for the first time in awhile

 

[Rick]

I have plenty of experience with weeding, laying, etc. Although I don't have alot of experience with installs, paint, and all of that stuff I'd also be offering him more than someone he could train off the street. With a degree in Graphic Design and 14yrs. experience under my belt, there is the fact he could count on me to aid in the design of everything. I've manned the phone, I've dealt with customers, and with running my own shop for over 14yrs. it could easily turn into a deal where he could leave things in my hands eventually and take of early to go fishing if he'd like? (Hahaha!) I would (like) to see something around the $20.00 range (so I could afford my own health insurance that's not provided) but I don't think in this economy I'd cringe at $18.00 either. Be it $18.00 or $20.00, I would still need to be able to do some work on the side to help make ends meet. With a $2,000.00 per month house payment, $375.00 truck payment, a 19 month old daughter who needs daycare, food, and everything else it is easy to see how fast anything under $20.00 could get chewed up in a heartbeat. Sure, it might be enough to just get by... but that's kind of all I'm doing right now isn't it? Having the ability to bring the extra on the side will not only make things easier for me, it would also make things less expensive for him as I wouldn't have to demand $25.00+ per hour, or say I need hime to provide benefits, etc. I DO hope things work out though, as I'm a big fan of his work and thing I would really enjoy a little change for the first time in awhile

So what you are saying is you are a vinyl sign guy... no shame in that, I am a very good vinyl monkey, but the pay is going to be on the low end.

 

[Ken]

Mac.
You could bring all these issues to the potential employer..even print out these posts for him (her)..show him your concerns..be up front. Include a mutual two-way non-competition clause. Good luck!
Ken

 

[Ponto]

I understand your predicament and have had, and am having similar decisions to make ...but understand that your value is likely to change from one setting to the next......your skills may be highly valued and sought after in one setting and may be diminished in the next.....its finding that happy medium ground where everybody wins .....that's the tricky part...good luck to you!!!!!

JP