Working with Cedar

[iam808]

I need advice on how to work with cedar. The customer is asking for a white washed background, V-carved copy, paint filled black.

For the white wash, I'm testing thinned Ronan Aquacote. It achieves the look but I'm not so confident on how well the paint mask will stick throughout fabrication. I'd really like to seal the wood but I'm not sure what to use. Shellac has a tendency to fail, and Poly Urethane doesn't always play nice with latex. Searching through signs101 I came across this product - Nautral Cetol SRD RE exterior wood finish which seems to be an answer, any thoughts if the latex would cause an issue?

A second option would be a Behr product, Semi transparent waterproofing stain and sealer. Exterior use, comes in transparent white, easy to get. On the surface, this sounds ideal.

Lastly, I recently saw a carved Mahogany sign where the paint filled copy bled into the sign. As if the grain sucked in the paint. I could tell this sign wasn't sealed in anyway, which I suspect was the cause. I'd prime the letters before painting and that should stop any bleeding, right?

Thanks.

 

[Billct2]

Sounds like it's going to require some experimenting. If I was doing those specs I'd carve the sign first, then apply a oil based white wash stain. Then over that a clear. Apply the mask and hit the letters with another coat of the same clear and peel the mask and let dry. Then mask again and paint the black. I would try to use all oil based finishes.

 

[TammieH]

We have used high quality exterior acrylics for over 20 years. A stain blocker is recommended as well for light colors.
But since your customer wants a whitewashed look, that will change everything, if you are good at faux painting,
you could do a fake whitewashed look.

Have fun and good luck

 

[SignosaurusRex]

If I'm understanding your question correctly and you want some of the wood grain to be visible in the final finish... I would most likely execute the V-carved copy first. Then apply your desired white-wash finish liberally over the entire substrate including the V-carved copy. While the white-wash paint is still "wet", rub the finish into the wood vigorously and quickly with course rags ...such as old (Terry-cloth) wash-cloths or towels and let dry. This step can be repeated if necessary in order to achieve desired finish. Once the white-wash is dried, apply a coat or two of (MINWAX) "Polycrylic Clear" of desired sheen. I prefer the satin finish myself. Once the clear finish has dried, then apply the color to the copy itself. If you over-shoot the edges of the copy with the color, it can be wiped off where needed. An additional clear coat can again be added if desired.

 

[iam808]

Thanks for the discussion, very helpful. I think I'm going to take a little from each post and do some test work.

SignosaurusRex, the Polycrylic is called out for interior work, have you had any issues using it for exterior?

 

[Gino]

I would first stain the wood whatever color you want for the white wash appearance to be. Next, I would put a light coat of clear urethane on it. The sheen could be whatever. I would use gloss. Next apply another coat of clear. When that is good & dry, I would apply my mask and carve away. Next, by hand, use sealer..... not sealer primer, just a good sealer and do two coats to what was carved out. Once that dries, apply your black paint and probably a second coat. Now, it you want to give your background a satin or matte finish, clear the whole thing with whatever sheen you want with maybe two solid coats, including the lettering this time. I use all oil-based paints and clears for this. This is a soft wood, so the sealant is necessary, but if you put it on first, your stain or white wash won't penetrate the wood or it's grain.

Oh, and here's hoping you started with white cedar and not red. Ask me how many of these I've done over the last 40 some years. Mostly in redwood, but they'll act exactly the same. Done my share of cedar, too. Almost always glued up my own blank to control grain and such. Make sure your grain is vertical clear-heart. It helps for consistency in carving or blasting.​

 

[SignosaurusRex]

[QUOTE="iam808, post: 1463634, member: 34702" ........SignosaurusRex, the Polycrylic is called out for interior work, have you had any issues using it for exterior?[/QUOTE]

iam808, I'm glad you caught that. I failed to mention that it's for interior work and that a suitable exterior grade clear might be needed. Personally I use Man O' War clear satin Spar Varnish for exterior use most of the time. I have used the Polycrylic for exterior signs like you are making ...if not exposed to rain, etc.

 

[spectrum maine]

I need advice on how to work with cedar. The customer is asking for a white washed background, V-carved copy, paint filled black.

For the white wash, I'm testing thinned Ronan Aquacote. It achieves the look but I'm not so confident on how well the paint mask will stick throughout fabrication. I'd really like to seal the wood but I'm not sure what to use. Shellac has a tendency to fail, and Poly Urethane doesn't always play nice with latex. Searching through signs101 I came across this product - Nautral Cetol SRD RE exterior wood finish which seems to be an answer, any thoughts if the latex would cause an issue?

A second option would be a Behr product, Semi transparent waterproofing stain and sealer. Exterior use, comes in transparent white, easy to get. On the surface, this sounds ideal.

Lastly, I recently saw a carved Mahogany sign where the paint filled copy bled into the sign. As if the grain sucked in the paint. I could tell this sign wasn't sealed in anyway, which I suspect was the cause. I'd prime the letters before painting and that should stop any bleeding, right?

Thanks.

sanding sealer first coat, other wise the red cedar will bleed pink

 

[iam808]

Gino - thank you. I am using white clear heart. So how many have you done of the years?

Steps are:
Stain, and then two coats of gloss clear urethane (Minwax Helman Spar Urethane).
Mask & carve.
Apply sealer to lettering, (going to go with SR's suggestion of Man O' War).
Paint letters, remove mask.
Two coats of the Man O' War

I'm looking forward to doing this. In 25+ years of sign making, no one has asked for Cedar and as an woodworking hobbyist, I just couldn't turn it down.

 

[Gino]

100's upon 100's in the 70's, 80's and 90's. However, most of them were sandblasted and as mentioned in vertical grain all clear heart redwood. Usually 6/4" or 8/4" boards. I've glued up 1,000's of boards over the years. Not as many lately, as most people are going by way of the prefabbed blanks and then CNC'ed.

One thing I left out. When putting on the clears, both before and after the carving parts, you wanna lightly sand with maybe 600 grit and tack them off. I usually used a roller to put my clears on. I used a very short nap cloth. After it sets for a little bit and you see the bubbles forming, wait for the right tack and hardly touching the blank, go over it with one last swipe of the roller, breaking all those bubbles so they flow out. Otherwise, you'll have a lotta little pimples in the final stages and you don't wanna try to sand them out.

Have fun, they were always my favorites to do..... best paying, too.
​

Largest one I ever did was I think 8.5' x about 27' one sided. That was back in the late 70's or so. Not easy getting boards over 20', but in those days anything was possible. That took about 4 days to glue up. Whew-ee those were the days !!!

 

[iam808]

Amusing update to this project.

Got a call 2 weeks ago that the finish is failing. So I make may way over and yeah, the sign is a mess. Not just the finish but the wood is splitting. Nothing I can do about it onsite so I take the sign down and bring it back to the shop. Proceed to ignore it for a day but finally get it up on the table. First, it's filthy. Strikingly dirty. Wash it with soapy water and the face, outside of the far right side actually looks pretty good. Flip the sign over, wash the back and...there's absolutely nothing wrong with the back. Note - the front and the back were evenly exposed to the elements, this is a freestanding monument sign.

The split isn't to bad, drilling a few small holes will allow me to get glue in the crack and I can clamp it, great. But I don't understanding the damage to the urethane. It's not flaking, peeling, bubbled or showing any other indication that the application was at fault. It's actually really, really smooth and even where it's failed (where urethane is missing), the edges of the damage is adhered tight to the wood. Then I notice a large area that looks like the urethane was sanded away and it hits me - water damage. This is water damage.

I email the customer and ask, do you have a sprinkler system near the sign? They do. Ok, lets turn it on and, you guessed it, the sprinklers hit the sign from all angles but specially the right front is taking a direct hit.

Sand the sign down, glue, apply urethane and bring it back. Get talking to the customer and find out...the sprinkler system timer had broken and the system was running 6 hours a night, 7 days a week for MONTHS. They only found out when a water bill in the thousands was received.

The end of my email "Ask the sprinkler company to come out and redirect the nozzle that's power washing the sign."

 

[Billct2]

Good detective work. If it was also the side that was in the sun during the day it was getting steam cleaned.