X-Rite Profiling

[rjssigns]

Back again with more profiling questions. Trying to use X-Rite independently to generate an ICC profile.
Even though I'm using Flexi to drive the printer I can't use the Wizard for what I'm doing.
I'm trying to figure out a process that can generate a profile independent of any known RIP.
By all indicators that should be possible. I profiled the Indigo digital press in the lab and it was fairly straightforward.

Equipment: i1Publish Pro2 and iO chart reader. 3.1.1 software.

Anyway here is where I'm at:
Started with Linearization and generated a 217 patch single scan chart.
Printed it through Flexi with no color correction. That went well.
Chart dried for nearly 24 hours before being read.
Reader had no issues and it generated a linearization.

Next step was to create an ICC profile using the new linearization since it allows for its inclusion.
Here's the issue. Ink Limits are still 400%. Shouldn't that be less with linearization?

Went ahead and printed the charts through Flexi with no color correction.
Ended up with so much ink it was pooling/cracking.

Not sure where I went wrong or the next step. All I know is ink limits need to be less than 400%. I can set them manually but that completely defeats the purpose.

Apologies for the long post.

 

[ColorCrest]

According to Flexi...

Basic Steps in Color Output Profiling in Flexi

Profile setup - Determine general properties of the ICC Profile.
Ink Limit - Determine the ink limit for each color of ink.
Ink Split - Determine the ink split for light and dark inks.
Linearization - Determine what the output levels of each color need to be in order to produce a linear density curve of ink coverage at levels ranging from 0 to 100% coverage.
Multi-Ink Limit - Determine the ink limit for combinations of multiple inks.
Gray balance - Determines the output levels of each color needed in order to produce a neutral gray for color and grayscale images.
Characterization - Determine the color characteristics of the printer.
ICC Generation - Measure the color gamut of the output device and generate an ICC profile.


Maybe search for a file (sorry no link) "Creating an Output Profile in Flexi Production Manager.pdf"

 

[P Wagner]

Back again with more profiling questions. Trying to use X-Rite independently to generate an ICC profile.
Even though I'm using Flexi to drive the printer I can't use the Wizard for what I'm doing.
I'm trying to figure out a process that can generate a profile independent of any known RIP.
By all indicators that should be possible. I profiled the Indigo digital press in the lab and it was fairly straightforward.

Equipment: i1Publish Pro2 and iO chart reader. 3.1.1 software.

Anyway here is where I'm at:
Started with Linearization and generated a 217 patch single scan chart.
Printed it through Flexi with no color correction. That went well.
Chart dried for nearly 24 hours before being read.
Reader had no issues and it generated a linearization.

Next step was to create an ICC profile using the new linearization since it allows for its inclusion.
Here's the issue. Ink Limits are still 400%. Shouldn't that be less with linearization?

Went ahead and printed the charts through Flexi with no color correction.
Ended up with so much ink it was pooling/cracking.

Not sure where I went wrong or the next step. All I know is ink limits need to be less than 400%. I can set them manually but that completely defeats the purpose.

Apologies for the long post.

Ink limit step is performed prior to the linearization as described above. There is a file to output and make ink restriction decisions from.

The other issue that you are facing is that the SAI RIP must build/ process the ICC Profiles, and they cannot be directly imported from external color engines, such as ProfileMaker, i1Profiler, or a different RIP. External ICCs may be converted into the SAI internal format in the SAI Profiler, and it may also be possible to import MXF measurement data and the ICC be generated from that data set.

 

[ColorCrest]

Ink limit step is performed prior to the linearization as described above.

The bigger issue that you are facing is that the SAI RIP must build/ process the ICC Profiles, and they cannot be imported from any external color engines, such as ProfileMaker, i1Profiler, or different RIP. I believe that it may be possible to import MXF measurement data if it was saved in i1P, and it should be able to process and build the ICC from that data set.

There is another SAi PDF named "Generating ICC Profiles Using Third Party Color Profiling.pdf" that might be found.

It may help, I'm not sure.

 

[rjssigns]

Thanks to P Wagner and Colorcrest for responding.

ColorCrest: I will try to find the white paper you suggested.

P Wagner: If there is an Ink Limit protocol using the scanner in the i1 software I haven't found it.

I dug into Flexi and found the Ink Limit test. It is visual and relies on my tired eyes to read the swatches then make an educated guess. Odd, since the point of instrumented tests/protocols is to remove subjectivity.


I'm going to have another go at this today. May just knuckle under and run through Flexi to get my bearings.

 

[ColorCrest]

I dug into Flexi and found the Ink Limit test. It is visual and relies on my tired eyes to read the swatches then make an educated guess. Odd, since the point of instrumented tests/protocols is to remove subjectivity.

I recommend you make at least two example prints of the Ink Limit Test file while you're there. Make what you think is a radical, unrealistic move on one of the prints. The exercise should show you some sort of "gauge" of the just what happens. Let us know what you learn.

EDIT: The "Ink Limit Test" file should be a file pertaining to Flexi's "Multi-Ink-Limit" step as they refer.

 

[rjssigns]

I recommend you make at least two example prints of the Ink Limit Test file while you're there. Make what you think is a radical, unrealistic move on one of the prints. The exercise should show you some sort of "gauge" of the just what happens. Let us know what you learn.

Will do. Quite the learning curve for wide format. The Indigo press was a walk in the park compared to this.

 

[P Wagner]

Thanks to P Wagner and Colorcrest for responding.

ColorCrest: I will try to find the white paper you suggested.

P Wagner: If there is an Ink Limit protocol using the scanner in the i1 software I haven't found it.

I dug into Flexi and found the Ink Limit test. It is visual and relies on my tired eyes to read the swatches then make an educated guess. Odd, since the point of instrumented tests/protocols is to remove subjectivity.


I'm going to have another go at this today. May just knuckle under and run through Flexi to get my bearings.

I1Profiler is used to create device profiles for printers, monitors, scanners, etc. When a RIP-based workflow is being used, the RIP is responsible for ink restrictions and linearization. Therefore, ink limiting/ restrictions are performed in the RIP rather than i1P.

 

[rjssigns]

I1Profiler is used to create device profiles for printers, monitors, scanners, etc. When a RIP-based workflow is being used, the RIP is responsible for ink restrictions and linearization. Therefore, ink limiting/ restrictions are performed in the RIP rather than i1P.

Yeah that's the part I can't wrap my head around. All this power at my fingertips yet a critical component relies on perception/subjectivity.

What about creating my own charts stepping 5% of CMYK then reading with a densitometer? Wouldn't that eliminate guesswork regarding ink limits? I can use the densitometers in the lab.

 

[ColorCrest]

Yeah that's the part I can't wrap my head around. All this power at my fingertips yet a critical component relies on perception/subjectivity.

What about creating my own charts stepping 5% of CMYK then reading with a densitometer? Wouldn't that eliminate guesswork regarding ink limits? I can use the densitometers in the lab.

If you perform the exercise of making the two example prints as I've described above you might find the answer to your curiosity.

HOWEVER...

Be aware of different nomenclature used by companies or processes. Sometimes "ink limits" might be called "ink restrictions," etc. So, be sure to use the proper file for the proper step of your process. Does Flexi refer to what I know as "Ink Limits step" as their "Multi-Ink Limit step"?

FYI, Onyx RIP steps are: Ink Restrictions, Linearization, Ink Limits, ICC profiling. The Ink Limits here is done visually.

 

[Tatonka]

If you perform the exercise of making the two example prints as I've described above you might find the answer to your curiosity.

HOWEVER...

Be aware of different nomenclature used by companies or processes. Sometimes "ink limits" might be called "ink restrictions," etc. So, be sure to use the proper file for the proper step of your process. Does Flexi refer to what I know as "Ink Limits step" as their "Multi-Ink Limit step"?

FYI, Onyx RIP steps are: Ink Restrictions, Linearization, Ink Limits, ICC profiling. The Ink Limits here is done visually.

I always seem to get stuck on the ink limits step, and don't know what I'm really looking for. On my Epson S80 with Onyx, I get to that step, print the chart, and to me the 100% of each channel looks perfect, anything higher than that gets closer to black. Am I supposed to put 100 for them all? That seems really low.

 

[ColorCrest]

I always seem to get stuck on the ink limits step, and don't know what I'm really looking for. On my Epson S80 with Onyx, I get to that step, print the chart, and to me the 100% of each channel looks perfect, anything higher than that gets closer to black. Am I supposed to put 100 for them all? That seems really low.

Search for a PDF from Onyx named "Onyx Using_HIVE_Wheels_Ink_Limits.pdf"

You're looking for the points to where colors "end" (rather dark) and physical ink-on-media defects; wet ink, pooling, etc.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

I always seem to get stuck on the ink limits step, and don't know what I'm really looking for. On my Epson S80 with Onyx, I get to that step, print the chart, and to me the 100% of each channel looks perfect, anything higher than that gets closer to black. Am I supposed to put 100 for them all? That seems really low.

Are you profiling using the Epson or Onyx workflow?

If it's Epson, the printer is doing the ink limits itself (contone) and you should be skipping that step. It's only required when using Onyx workflow.

 

[Tatonka]

Search for a PDF from Onyx named "Onyx Using_HIVE_Wheels_Ink_Limits.pdf"

You're looking for the points to where colors "end" (rather dark) and physical ink-on-media defects; wet ink, pooling, etc.

so basically the first point the colors turn black?