Yellow turns green in sunlight.

[Gino]

Who gives a rat's butt about all these numbers and ways of achieving the correct color match ??

The OP printed the wrong color, because someone was too lazy to walk from their computer screen to out the door and look at a small sample or two. Happens ALL the time. Anyone in this business knows you hafta double check colors, whether you're matching high end photography or the yellow or red of a print. This is basic sign making these days. Anything else is just plain irresponsible.

This measuring of whose pecker is bigger has nothing to do with printing the wrong colors.

 

[Jester]

And that would be where exactly? 6500k in bulbs is called daylight. Go ahead and show me where I am wrong. You said it, back it up.

It can be confusing when buying fluorescent or LED tubes. Daylight, Natural Daylight, and Daylight Deluxe are all terms used by the manufacturers for various color temperatures. It's also hard to find the CRI (color rendering index) listed, which may be even more important for rendering colors accurately than the version of "daylight" color temperature you choose, as alluded to by Pauly .

Here are a few examples of "daylight" tube descriptions, taken from the Home Depot website:

Feit Electric 60-Watt Equivalent T3 Spiral Non-Dimmable GU24 Base Compact Fluorescent CFL Light Bulb, Daylight 5000K

Philips 32-Watt T8/ 40-Watt T12 4 ft. Linear Replacement Universal Fit LED Tube Light Bulb Daylight (5000K)

Philips 32-Watt 48 in. Linear T8 Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb Natural Daylight (5000K)

Philips 32-Watt 4 ft. Alto Linear T8 Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb, Daylight (6500K)

Philips 40-Watt 4 ft. Linear T12 ALTO Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb Daylight Deluxe (6500K)

Philips 40-Watt Equivalent 4 ft. Linear T12 InstantFit LED Tube Light Bulb Daylight Deluxe (6500K)

We recently relamped our print room. The difference in lighting was dramatic, as the old tubes were 14 years old (time passes quickly, it seems) and worn out and putting out much less light than their replacements. Some had been replaced with tubes of mismatched color temperature - this is what happens when you send someone to the store to get a box of "daylight" tubes!

 

[Pauly]

It can be confusing when buying fluorescent or LED tubes. Daylight, Natural Daylight, and Daylight Deluxe are all terms used by the manufacturers for various color temperatures. It's also hard to find the CRI (color rendering index) listed, which may be even more important for rendering colors accurately than the version of "daylight" color temperature you choose, as alluded to by Pauly .

Here are a few examples of "daylight" tube descriptions, taken from the Home Depot website:

Feit Electric 60-Watt Equivalent T3 Spiral Non-Dimmable GU24 Base Compact Fluorescent CFL Light Bulb, Daylight 5000K

Philips 32-Watt T8/ 40-Watt T12 4 ft. Linear Replacement Universal Fit LED Tube Light Bulb Daylight (5000K)

Philips 32-Watt 48 in. Linear T8 Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb Natural Daylight (5000K)

Philips 32-Watt 4 ft. Alto Linear T8 Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb, Daylight (6500K)

Philips 40-Watt 4 ft. Linear T12 ALTO Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb Daylight Deluxe (6500K)

Philips 40-Watt Equivalent 4 ft. Linear T12 InstantFit LED Tube Light Bulb Daylight Deluxe (6500K)

We recently relamped our print room. The difference in lighting was dramatic, as the old tubes were 14 years old (time passes quickly, it seems) and worn out. Some had been replaced with tubes of mismatched color temperature - this is what happens when you send someone to the store to get a box of "daylight" tubes! All of the old tubes were putting out much less light than their replacements.

Easy rule of thumb, if they dont display a CRI, they're generally not so great.
Good thing is that more high CRI globes are getting more available

Fluro & LED give off a different spectrum of light. and also the wattage makes a huge difference. Fluro is generally better but LED has came a long way.

If anyone is doing serious colour matching, they'd be using a Spectrophotometer. people who think "their eyes are good enough" are so naïve... You can 2 colours that are about 3-5 dE different, put them a fingers gap away and they'd look the same.
You could get 2 colours 5-8 dE apart and look at the individually and probably wont see a difference until you bring them closer together

 

[Pauly]

Who gives a rat's butt about all these numbers and ways of achieving the correct color match ??

The OP printed the wrong color, because someone was too lazy to walk from their computer screen to out the door and look at a small sample or two. Happens ALL the time. Anyone in this business knows you hafta double check colors, whether you're matching high end photography or the yellow or red of a print. This is basic sign making these days. Anything else is just plain irresponsible.

This measuring of whose pecker is bigger has nothing to do with printing the wrong colors.

He asked for advice. Our advice is to get better lighting if he wants to colour match indoors.

What's your advice to him?

 

[Jester]

Our work is viewed outdoors on bright SoCal days. We considered a LED retrofit. We considered 5000K for the reasons Pauly mentioned. We even considered painting the walls Munsell grey! We settled on a high-CRI 6500K fluorescent tube, and reprofiled our monitors' white point from 5000K to 6500K.

I think this is a reasonable solution for our type of work. It might not be appropriate for someone doing indoor retail signage and trying to match brand colors.

 

[Vinyl slayer]

Would suggest printing a few swatches and have a look at them outside. After all, the wrap will be driving about outdoors 99% of the time anyway.

+1

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It can be confusing when buying fluorescent or LED tubes. Daylight, Natural Daylight, and Daylight Deluxe are all terms used by the manufacturers for various color temperatures. It's also hard to find the CRI (color rendering index) listed, which may be even more important for rendering colors accurately than the version of "daylight" color temperature you choose, as alluded to by Pauly .

Here are a few examples of "daylight" tube descriptions, taken from the Home Depot website:

Feit Electric 60-Watt Equivalent T3 Spiral Non-Dimmable GU24 Base Compact Fluorescent CFL Light Bulb, Daylight 5000K

Philips 32-Watt T8/ 40-Watt T12 4 ft. Linear Replacement Universal Fit LED Tube Light Bulb Daylight (5000K)

Philips 32-Watt 48 in. Linear T8 Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb Natural Daylight (5000K)

Philips 32-Watt 4 ft. Alto Linear T8 Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb, Daylight (6500K)

Philips 40-Watt 4 ft. Linear T12 ALTO Fluorescent Tube Light Bulb Daylight Deluxe (6500K)

Philips 40-Watt Equivalent 4 ft. Linear T12 InstantFit LED Tube Light Bulb Daylight Deluxe (6500K)

We recently relamped our print room. The difference in lighting was dramatic, as the old tubes were 14 years old (time passes quickly, it seems) and worn out and putting out much less light than their replacements. Some had been replaced with tubes of mismatched color temperature - this is what happens when you send someone to the store to get a box of "daylight" tubes!

Yes but daylight is the reference for 5-6500k bulbs, that is all that I was saying. Not that it is daylight or a substitute for daylight or will be the end all be all for color matching. Since we were talking about lighting for a shop that doesn't even want to spend 50 bucks for some new bulbs and doesn't seem to know what colors they are using until they actually print, I suggested using 5-6500k range bulbs. I may be wrong here but I thought that would be right temp for a person that will at most run down to home depot in an attempt to fix their problem.
All of this color stuff is great BUT just because someone has a PHD in color rendering doesn't mean that it becomes this ultra important thing for a general sign shop. If you know what you're doing, the colors will be right. We're not building space shuttles here.

 

[Jester]

View attachment 153072

In the first image these two seem counter-intuitive:

• Cloudy sky 6500K

• Average noon sunlight 5300K

Is it possible they are reversed?

 

[buggyjr12]

yeah, we just did a truck wrap that was yellow and black. It looked great in the shop, perfect match. The second I started I was horrified to see that the yellow turned green.

If it's supposed to be 100% yellow, check and make sure there isn't any Cyan in it. Even .01% will turn yellow green. Been there, done that.

 

[Inks]

Easy rule of thumb, if they dont display a CRI, they're generally not so great.
Good thing is that more high CRI globes are getting more available

Fluro & LED give off a different spectrum of light. and also the wattage makes a huge difference. Fluro is generally better but LED has came a long way.

If anyone is doing serious colour matching, they'd be using a Spectrophotometer. people who think "their eyes are good enough" are so naïve... You can 2 colours that are about 3-5 dE different, put them a fingers gap away and they'd look the same.
You could get 2 colours 5-8 dE apart and look at the individually and probably wont see a difference until you bring them closer together

Yes! Although I have met a few people who think they are human spectrophotometers lol
Many people cannot see certain colors accurately and they are usually the color matchers lol

 

[Notarealsignguy]

In the first image these two seem counter-intuitive:

• Cloudy sky 6500K

• Average noon sunlight 5300K

Is it possible they are reversed?

No, that is correct. 6500k is closer to an overcast day because it is pushing into blue a bit more than 5000k. Remember it isnt about brightness, it is hue.

 

[Gino]

He asked for advice. Our advice is to get better lighting if he wants to colour match indoors.

What's your advice to him?

I guess you didn't read my entire post or you wouldn't've asked this question..... again.

I said, someone was too lazy to take it outside and check it. Who in their right mind relies on lighting of about 25 different varieties ?? He needs to do a physical check and not depend on artificial means. He said as soon as it started printing, they knew it was wrong. What's the sense of this whole thread but to check it first and make sure, before you print an entire wrap. That is about the dumbest thing I've heard here in a long time. But you guys all wanna puff out your chests, beat them and talk about miniscule tools which most people don't have or can afford.

Facts are, as soon s they started printing, it was wrong, but they went ahead anyways, regardless if the customer agreed or not. How many monitors and digressions took place ?? You need to look at hard copies and make sure the customer is on exactly the same page as you.

 

[danno]

I agree with Gino. I've been color matching for print since the late 90's. When we walked outside with the customer to sign off on print swatches, we never had any problems.

 

[Souldar]

most signshops dont use any specific lighting. D50 lighting isn't cheap either unfortunately.
But it is recommended if you're doing anything regarding colour matching, or else you'll be like OP and get different colour matching results inside and outside.
The other way to colour match is with a spectro...
standard 5000k or 6500k or any lights in general don't product the full colour spectrum, so you'll always get variation from true sunlight and shop light.

You are correct. Our customers generally just want a color close to what they pick. This was one of the few custom matches we do and I have only been running the printers a couple years now. This is the first project for outdoors with any color issues until now. Thanks everybody for the advice, I think we will be remembering to color match in the daylight from here on out.

 

[Souldar]

I agree with Gino. I've been color matching for print since the late 90's. When we walked outside with the customer to sign off on print swatches, we never had any problems.

To be a bit more concise, I didn't notice the color was wrong until I had printed everything and started the wrap. Haven't had this problem since I started here until now and will be going outside to check from here on out. Not a question of laziness, more of a lack of experience and learning curve. Have always been wary with tans as I remembered that from a previous shop but didn't think to check yellow. Meant this as a reply to Gino implying that I was being lazy, hit the wrong button.

 

[Gino]

To be a bit more concise, I didn't notice the color was wrong until I had printed everything and started the wrap. Haven't had this problem since I started here until now and will be going outside to check from here on out. Not a question of laziness, more of a lack of experience and learning curve. Have always been wary with tans as I remembered that from a previous shop but didn't think to check yellow. Meant this as a reply to Gino implying that I was being lazy, hit the wrong button.

Well, let me rephrase that. I thought you meant when you hit the print button you noticed it. Noticing it at the end, is even worse.

As to laziness, call it what you like, but the fact remains, no one bothered checking anything except what was right in front of their nose(s). When you have a job that size and the whole thing is wrong, someone hasta pay the piper. If I hired you and you made it the wrong color and figured out after it was finished and tried to talk the customer into liking it...... you'd be looking for another new job. If you're the guy who designed it, pressed the print button and put it on, you failed from the git-go.

Tell me this soul...... didn't ANYONE anywhere along the whole way notice this ?? Honestly ?? If not, then a lotta heads should be rolling. I'd be danged if I'd foot the bill for a buncha mistakes so stupidly made.

 

[Vinyl slayer]

Gino, he admitted inexperience. He's learning. that's what happens when you have a bad experience, which he's had. sounds like he has been listening and learning and has heard the basic problematic factor(s). New proper lighting would help (as confusing as that all got) and of course the REAL duh factor... look at a print sample OUTSIDE in REAL daylight... where the product will be 99.99 percent of the time.

 

[Gino]

Yep, we all hafta start somewhere, but he worked at another place for some time, then at this place for several years and was in charge of everything that went wrong. Okay, so it went wrong and he screwed up. Who pays for that lesson ?? Is that a bad question ?? I don't mind paying for mistakes, learning curves and other stupid things, but they not only fabricated it wrong, they continued to apply it and THEN convince the customer it will probably work. That kinda stupidity is very unhealthy for a sign shop's reputation. Did soul tell the cistomer he didn't know what he was doing, although he was in charge ?? Did soul offer to pay the owner for the losses in material, ink, laminate and application time ?? I know full well how to and where to place blame, but why is it, this is an honest mistake and he didn't know any better ?? How can you be in charge and not know some basics ?? I tried not to embarrass soul, but you guys keep asking the obvious and to me the obvious is from my point of view, not the abuser.

Sorry soul, but that's just how I see it. Am I wrong ??

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Yep, we all hafta start somewhere, but he worked at another place for some time, then at this place for several years and was in charge of everything that went wrong. Okay, so it went wrong and he screwed up. Who pays for that lesson ?? Is that a bad question ?? I don't mind paying for mistakes, learning curves and other stupid things, but they not only fabricated it wrong, they continued to apply it and THEN convince the customer it will probably work. That kinda stupidity is very unhealthy for a sign shop's reputation. Did soul tell the cistomer he didn't know what he was doing, although he was in charge ?? Did soul offer to pay the owner for the losses in material, ink, laminate and application time ?? I know full well how to and where to place blame, but why is it, this is an honest mistake and he didn't know any better ?? How can you be in charge and not know some basics ?? I tried not to embarrass soul, but you guys keep asking the obvious and to me the obvious is from my point of view, not the abuser.

Sorry soul, but that's just how I see it. Am I wrong ??

No. Not wrong at all.
I'd say that coming on here in search for an answer would be a positive thing but thats not the case. The blame was placed on the lights and then they went even further to say the lights are because the boss is cheap soooo this whole problem is because the boss is cheap. When my employees make mistakes it doesn't bother me in the least..... When they own it. If you start blaming the tools or other employees then I get mad.

 

[White Haus]

If it's supposed to be 100% yellow, check and make sure there isn't any Cyan in it. Even .01% will turn yellow green. Been there, done that.

This, and the laminate will also probably have a yellow tint to it. Wearing glasses with the "blue light filter" on them? Try taking them off, you'll be shocked by how much those things throw off your perception of color.

To the OP, I feel your pain. I can't say we've ever gotten that far in before noticing something was off, but even after all these years I'm still surprised how much our prints will shift from the production area to the front office, and then even more so outside and in direct sunlight. (Greys are fun for this) We've done a few vehicle graphics lately with a greyscale image or grey components, and they look straight purple in our shop. Pull them outside, and they look perfect.

Custom, accurate profiles are definitely helpful, but short of that just remember to print swatches (on the material that will be used for the job) and laminate (with the material that will be used for the job) and bring them outside. Rinse and repeat until you are satisfied with the colors.

Onyx is great for this for printing as many swatches as you want, with the increments that you want. Ironically we have a couple custom profiles built for each of our printers but I still usually end up using the sample/matching method mentioned above, just to make 100% sure we're hitting the colors. Not ideal, but until we invest some more time into profiling and proper lighting, it gets the job done.

In a perfect world/shop, we would all have natural lighting (call it D50 or 6500k or whatever floats your boat) and custom built profiles to the desired lighting, but for most smaller sign shops it's just too big of a time and financial investment.

Hope you get the color issue sorted out, Rolands ARE capable of nice bright yellows so you should be able to get it done. Just remember to edit your cmyk OUTPUT values in Versaworks, assuming you're using that workflow. You can always start by printing the Roland Color Library with the same profile/material/laminate you'll be using, and bring that outside. Use that RVW spot color as a starting point and adjust cmyk output values if needed.

Good luck!